Knocked Out?

[Jacob Ortega]

Unless there was an earlier thread about this, I'd like to know how y'all consider a tank or AFV knocked out.

In case I get redirected to a thread from mid 2007 that I don't feel like bumping I'll go first:

 

To me, an AFV is considered KO'd when it has sustained so much damage that the crew cannot operate their vehicle effectively and/or safely. This does not include mobility kills or other mission kills, and also does not count if the crew bailed their vehicle because of the possibility that it may be remounted and continually operated (however I will count it as a KO if the crew bails and quits the field, completely abandoning their vehicle). If the vehicle is not repairable or, in some cases, is not recoverable in its current state, I count it as destroyed.

 

And for the record, I am pretty bored right now.

[Jabberwocky]

When it burns or changes shape

[Ssnake]

If it burns or changes shape, it's a kill. To me, KO'd suggests that it still can be put back into fighting condition (with gratuitous application of duct tape).

[Roman Alymov]

To me, an AFV is considered KO'd when it has sustained so much damage that the crew cannot operate their vehicle effectively and/or safely.

This definition makes tanks “knocked out” the very moment they leave production plant – since tanks are not safe even when new and undamaged, and effectiveness is not absolute but comparative.

[commander]

Knocked out is a vauge term, I think for me (UK)we used to say means tgt hit and is no longer a threat although voice procedure would say Destroyed. A matter of how you use the pharse I think

[Jacob Ortega]

This definition makes tanks “knocked out” the very moment they leave production plant – since tanks are not safe even when new and undamaged, and effectiveness is not absolute but comparative.

If the tank was hit upon leaving the production plant, then maybe you'd be correct.

[Wobbly Head]

This definition makes tanks “knocked out” the very moment they leave production plant – since tanks are not safe even when new and undamaged, and effectiveness is not absolute but comparative.

 

Its also true when it comes to servicable vehicles in three years servicing fire control systems in a front line regiment 50 tank regiment. I can only recal one tank being completley 100% servicable and that only lasted about a day 2IC's tank. There is always something small or big will break sometimes just by looking at them, sometimes they cause enough problems that the tank is classed as unservicable or technicaly knocked out.

[bojan]

Local definitions:

Damaged - can be repaired by unit or field repair workshop.

KOd - has to be evacuated and repaired by specific repair factory.

Completely KOd - can be rebuilt by factory.

Destroyed - no prospect of repair/rebuild, only good as scrap metal.

[Jacob Ortega]

It looks like you guys are misunderstanding my post. According to my definition, just because a tank has sustained battle damage does not mean it is KO'd. If the tank can still function as a tank after taking damage, it isn't knocked out. You don't have to fix every little detail of a tank, it just has to be able to fulfill its role as a tank. It's common knowledge (or at least it should be) that once something is broken once, it will most likely never be perfect again.

 

About the whole safety thing, that's also a case of common sense since there is never a safe place on a battlefield. Y'all don't have to take my definition so literally.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Jacob Ortega

[rohala]

I am confused with the question. You don't want the definition of a write-off tank, and you don't want the definition of a mission kill. What do you want?

[commander]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous reply

[Rickard N]

Isn't the question roughly "when do you stop worrying about a target". I don't quite remember what we were taught but burning or pretty much blown apart seems to ring a bell.

 

 

/R

[shep854]

If you compare the use of "KO" to boxing (where it originated), a "knock-out" is when one contestant is unable to function due to his opponent's action. For tank-fighting, "mission-kill" is a fancy staffer's term for KO; of course a reshaped or torched tank is the ultimate KO.

[FALightFighter]

I'm an artilleryman, so my usage is based on that experience.

 

If the tank (or other piece of equipment) can continue the mission, although in degraded mode, it is not KO.

 

If it can't continue the mission, but must be either evacuated or stop and wait for recovery/maintenance, it is a KO.

 

I would probably only use KO if due to enemy action, otherwise it is a maintenance issue. Although thinking about it, I don't think I would use KO at all- I would use either Mission Capable or Not Mission Capable.

 

As always, these things are situationally dependent. What the Israelis kept in action on the Golan in 1973 used a very different standard that what the US kept in action in NW Europe in 1944.

[Simon Tan]

Knocked Out generally means incapable of further military action. This could be for any number of reasons including the crew taking fright and legging it. This is why control of the battlefield is desirable, primarily so you can recover your own disabled vehicles and deny the enemy the same.

This is also why AFVs tend to be shot up till they burn, as that provides a clear visual indicator of permanent incapacitation.

T-72s are excellent in this regard since good behind armor effects will often result in the very visual loss of turret due to secondaries.

For this same reason, the small HE charge in WWII PzGr was more effective after penetration than solid shot.

[Jacob Ortega]

For tank-fighting, "mission-kill" is a fancy staffer's term for KO

The reason I usually dislike counting mission kills as knock outs is because of the definition of mission kill (the vehicle isn't destroyed, but it takes no further part in its intended mission). While a KO could fit under mission kill, so does a mobility kill. Hearing the term "mission kill" tells me that the tank is not entirely inoperable and, depending on the situation, can still pose a threat. As my definition above states, a knocked out tank is one that is inoperable, while a destroyed tank is beyond any repair (the first sign of which is fire, or in some cases a firework display).

 

Local definitions:

Damaged - can be repaired by unit or field repair workshop.

KOd - has to be evacuated and repaired by specific repair factory.

Completely KOd - can be rebuilt by factory.

Destroyed - no prospect of repair/rebuild, only good as scrap metal.

I think this list works best.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Jacob Ortega

[Michael Eastes]

Isn't the question roughly "when do you stop worrying about a target". I don't quite remember what we were taught but burning or pretty much blown apart seems to ring a bell.

 

 

/R

 

Likewise. As for our target vehicles, we were taught to shoot until it was on fire or large parts were coming off.