Dutch Army - drastic reductions

[m4a1]

 

Dutch Army to Sell All Leopards and Cougars

 

(Source: Dutch News; published April 8, 2011)

 

THE HAGUE --- The cabinet is virtually certain to announce enormous cutbacks at defence today. According to a leaked draft version of the measures, 12,000 jobs and complete army units will disappear.

 

Defence Minister Hans Hillen already announced permanent budget cuts of 1 billion euros per year earlier. The cabinet already considered the far-reaching cutbacks last week. The decision was however postponed and will likely be made today.

 

Public broadcaster NOS has already obtained the plans. It says that all 60 Leopard tanks will be divested. The 17 Cougar helicopters are also to go, as well as four of the 10 mine-sweepers. At least one-third of the 86 F-16s will also be sold.

 

Some 12,300 jobs will disappear. Around 6,000 soldiers will face forced redundancies. NOS has not yet discovered where the blows will actually fall.

 

The unions are furious and derisive. Bigger missions such as that in Uruzgan - four years, 2,000 personnel - will no longer be possible in the future, says ACOM chairman Kleian. "The Netherlands will have a Belgian armed forces. Flying now and then. And if there is money and petrol, then we will do a trick."

 

According to defence sources, the Apache helicopters and Bushmaster heavy armoured vehicles will take over the tasks of the Leopards. The Netherlands can also step up European partnership, for example with Germany. But for this, there appears to be more willingness within the Netherlands than outside it.

 

The Netherlands and Germany do already have a combined army unit. Allies are however hesitant about awarding full air force or army tasks to a specific country.

 

One in seven of the military must fear for their jobs. Defence currently employs nearly 69,000 people, including 48,300 military. Hillen will sharply prune the number of officers. Generals will also not escape the cutbacks.

 

A sour detail for the military who are virtually on the street is that the cabinet will likely also approve the purchase of a second F35 JSF test aircraft today. This US fighter aircraft is to replace the F-16s. The investment will cost many billions. (ends)

 

 

Soruce: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/124454/dutch-army-to-shut-down-as-tanks%2C-helicopters-retired.html

 

Any more information? I'm sad to hear one of the used-to-be strongest armies in Europe is losing its conventional combat capability...

Edited April 9, 2011 by m4a1

[Colin]

I hope our government is smart enough to pick up a few spare hulls and parts.

[chino]

I hope our government is smart enough to pick up a few spare hulls and parts.

 

Not if we can get to 'em first!

 

We need more tanks to help carry those dastardly fullpacks.

[Tomas Hoting]

But apparently the Dutch still have enough money for that increasingly expensive F-35 vapourware toy jet. Go figure...

 

Frankly, the idea of pooling military resources becomes an increasingly pressing problem. Since the Brits and French have decided to get too cozy for my comfort with their Suez redux, I'm all for an increased cooperation between Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium etc. The Dutch get access to our Leopard 2s and we get access to their Apaches (or something like that). Let's try to get the Poles on board as well. On their side, they finally have a well-led reasonable government (especially in comparison to the previous one...), and on our side, Erika Steinbach and her the Bund der Vertriebenen have managed to completely discredit themselves...

[Archie Pellagio]

I honestly can't see trans-national resources working in reality, especially when you start talking Bennelux-German-French politics...

[Ssnake]

I honestly can't see trans-national resources working in reality, especially when you start talking Benelux-German-French politics...

Me neither. Not as long as we don't have a unified exterior policy and command structure, and there's a fat chance that that is ever gonna happen.

[Corinthian]

Re: unified command, I hope I live long enough to see the day when a renewed Viking force is created.... The thought of it just brings tears to my ears.... *imagines Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland having a unified force structure with Gripens providing air cover over LHAs full of Strv-122s, rampaging the UK, France, Russia, and all the way down to Baghdad*

 

[Corinthian]

All these .mil cuts from rich countries just reinforces my opinion that warfighting is so expensive, only poor countries can afford it.

[Ariete!]

Two considerations: one military and one 'social science-y'.

 

1) Historically, many (all?) armies soon after a war is over dismantle much of their 'specialized' (useful) war-fighting apparatus and revert to a very small and/or low-quality, 'generic' (basic) kind of armed service which then ahs to reinvent the wheel, etc. If we consider the long Nato-WP stand-off as a 'cold' war (to coin a phrase :-) ), I guess we are still in a long wind-down stage that might actually have been faster and more vicious were it not for all the PE/PK/COIN ops undertaken since then.

See the parallel between the large and very heavily armed WW1 UK army quickly pared back essentially to a colonial gendarmerie (I exaggerate for effect).

This time around, many small and even medium-sized European countries are cutting back to the point where: a) the overhead of DoD/HQs/ancillary schools & establishments is ridiculously inefficient relative to the small, relatively lightly equipped spear points. At least at this level, some European/NATO cooperation/aggregation would be helpful. It does all mean, however, that except or the US (as we are seeing in Libya), once-mighty nations can now barely field any hard power and, low production runs magnify he cost of what purchases are made to insane levels.

 

2) A significant part of the consumption growth in many western developed economies has come through 'doping' the economy in various ways (cheap money, the deficits or both). With the chickens coming home to roost, the new accepted wisdom is that we cannot afford large armies. The opposite is true, of course. The richer you are, typically, the more you can invest even as % of your wealth in protecting your property...

[Manic Moran]

At least at this level, some European/NATO cooperation/aggregation would be helpful.

 

One would have thought that if there were any country in the world which has been taught the risks inherent with reliance on your allies for military capabilities, it would have been the Dutch.

 

NTM

[swerve]

Why? When were they last let down badly by allies? They were neutral in 1940, & their allies came up trumps at Waterloo.

[rmgill]

And how did that neutrality work out for them? I suppose they COULD build high speed expressways to route Invading armies across their territory to the German and French borders.

[Manic Moran]

Why? When were they last let down badly by allies? They were neutral in 1940, & their allies came up trumps at Waterloo.

 

1995. Colonel Karremans (Netherlands) probably doesn't have the greatest things to say about General Janvier (France).

 

NTM

[LeoTanker]

1995. Colonel Karremans (Netherlands) probably doesn't have the greatest things to say about General Janvier (France).

 

NTM

 

The responsability to dig in and hold their perimeter was still ultemately with Cl. Karremans IMO. Trying to blame it on the French just stinks.

Well, enougth OT.

[John_Ford]

When's the going out of Business Sale? I'd like to pick up a Leo 1A2

Edited April 20, 2011 by John_Ford

[swerve]

I believe they were all disposed of long ago. However, if you want a Leo 2A6, get on down there!

[Doug Kibbey]

I suppose they COULD build high speed expressways to route Invading armies across their territory to the German and French borders.

 

"No exit, next 150km."

[Xavier]

And how did that neutrality work out for them? I suppose they COULD build high speed expressways to route Invading armies across their territory to the German and French borders.

They don't have French borders, though I'm sure Belgium will happily close the Highways for normal traffic while the Panzers are "passing through" once again.

[Tomas Hoting]

Some good news regarding increased German-Dutch cooperation (possible operational partnership for submarine services, joint Patriot unit, joint maintenance of military equipment like Boxer, PzH 2000 and NH90, etc.):

 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/125393/dutch%2C-german-military-partnership-takes-shape.html

 

Dutch, German Military Partnership to Take Shape

 

(Source: Dutch News; issued May 12, 2011)

 

THE HAGUE --- Defence Minister Hans Hillen is to work out plans for partnership with Germany further, he said following a working visit to Berlin.

 

Hillen and his German counterpart Thomas de Maiziere see possibilities for operational partnership for their submarine services, according to a spokesman for the Dutch minister. They also discussed the establishment of a joint unit for Patriot anti-missile systems.

 

The Patriot initiative should take shape within the NATO framework. Other countries might join this later. According to Hillen's spokesman, Poland and Italy have already expressed interest.

 

Plans will also be worked out for maintenance with the Germans of Boxers and armoured howitzers of German make and the NH90 helicopters. This new helicopter is a European project.

 

Hillen has already discussed more partnership with his Belgian and UK counterparts earlier. He will soon visit Luxembourg and Norway with the same aim.

 

The minister has to make permanent cutbacks of 1 billion euros in the coming years. Within the cabinet, it has been agreed that Defence can itself reinvest possible benefits from international partnership.

 

Hillen and De Maiziere also discussed Kunduz, where the Dutch mission for training Afghan police will begin soon. Germany has the military leadership for NATO's ISAF force in this northern province of Afghanistan.

 

-ends-

[Kenneth P. Katz]

Farewell.

[Tomas Hoting]

Being somewhat related to increased Dutch-German cooperation, the Danish defense minister has now proposed the idea of Germany and Norway jointly carrying out the air policing of Denmark, thus enabling the Danish air force to take part in future international operations. The new Danish government recently announed defense savings of up to 10-15%. The new proposal would allow them to buy less jets and still retain the option of taking part in the abovementioned international operations.

 

As we all know, shrinking military budgets and spiralling unit costs of the Just So Failed (JSF) (which, for whatever reason, still appears to be the Danish air force's favourite) are quite incompatible.

 

Article in Danish:

http://politiken.dk/politik/ECE1422750/minister-tyske-jagerfly-skal-passe-paa-danmarks-luftrum/

 

Plans like this one also have the endorsement of NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, calling it "Smart Defense":

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_74489.htm

 

"(...) “I would urge all Allies to focus on three elements: first, stay committed to participation in our international operations. Second, continue to modernise your military with a view to making it more deployable and more oriented towards high-tech military equipment. Third, cooperate with others with the aim to pool and share resources so that you can together afford to acquire the necessary capabilities,” the Secretary General said (...)."

[rmgill]

This will end badly. The lessons of WWI-WWII are not being remembered.

[Tomas Hoting]

More good news: the Dutch army might have lost its own Leo 2s, but it wants to retain the necessary knowledge. The solution: further increase cooperation with the German army, and use Bundeswehr Leo 2s for training and on exercices.

 

http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2715024/oefenen-duitse-tanks.html

 

(Translation by Google):

 

'Exercise on German tanks'

 

THE HAGUE - Dutch army repels the cuts by tanks, but knowledge of this weapon should not be lost.

 

Therefore Dutch military personnel can practice on German tanks, said land forces commander, General Mart de Kruif Saturday in daily newspaper Trouw.

 

According to him, with the German army already discussed the use of German tanks at Dutch exercises. He gives high on such a form of cooperation between both countries. ''Militarily, the borders of our cooperation has not yet reached''said De Kruif.

 

According to De Kruif tanks are still indispensable, even in missions abroad. ''You have the effect of a tank (firepower, mobility and armor), necessary for any opponent to the ground, to dominate,''he says. Large-scale deployment of tanks in the current relations within Europe unlikely. For smaller-scale military operations are still happy to use tanks.

 

In a speech to the Atlantic Council in Washington, stressed Minister Hans Hillen of Defense earlier this week the importance of defense cooperation. ''To the current economic crisis to maintain NATO as a security guarantee of the participants required further cooperation, "said the minister.

 

As an example of cooperation Hillen said the cooperation between the Netherlands and the United States last week that he with his own eyes on the Texas Army base Fort Hood saw. Dutch helicopter pilots to take advantage of U.S. training facilities. He also referred to the joint construction of F-16 users to the possible purchase of the JSF. A partnership that is paying according to Hillen all fruit is the common C-17 transport fleet of NATO.

[TonyE]

Every time i see this thread popping up on the recently posted list my first reaction is always "Oh damn...what are they cutting now...". But for once the news were a little better. Is it known if the two armoured regiments will be disbanded completely or re-rolled for something else?

[11E]

February the 9th the battalion standard will be given back to the 13th Armoured Brigade commander and that will be the end of 11th Tank battalion. I think that 42nd Tank battalion will have the same ceremony on the same day. The Regiments (van Sytzama and Prince of Orange) are disbanded and the Regimental standards are to be imposed (correct word?). They are not to be re-roled

 

Regards