Colin Posted September 17, 2021 Posted September 17, 2021 Interesting find https://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/19584732.archaeologists-stunning-finds-national-significance/?fbclid=IwAR1UFP2uyBK6jybdq3uAxscnG0tru2bYNrt_FW0eGfSH4z4ehiVgwVS7V7w During the dig, in which archaeologists were aiming to find the original track-bed structure, the main trench revealed three wooden railways, each one lying immediately on top of the last in an apparent multiple early upgrade over a short period of time. Consisting of crudely cut timbers, these upgrades included a change of gauge, from an initial 3ft 3in in the first phase to 4ft 0in in the second and third phases – modern railways are 4ft 8.5in. The discovery has been described as unlike any other in railway archaeology.
bojan Posted September 17, 2021 Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) Greeks and Romans used trackways cut in the paved roads for the wagons, making them oldest "railroad" in Europe (worldwide there was a somewhat similar system in China that is possibly older). Some villas had similar cuts in the courtyards, possibly for delivery wagons. Edited September 17, 2021 by bojan
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) Most modern Railways are Stephenson Gauge, 4 foot 8 and a half inches. Which was based on the gauge used in British mines, which was itelf based upon the gauge used by the romans, judging by wagon ruts. Basically the worlds railways are defined by the ass width of a Roman horse, or so the story goes. Disappointingly Wikipedia has to try and dispell it. A popular legend that has been around since at least 1937[7] traces the origin of the 1,435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) gauge even further back than the coalfields of northern England, pointing to the evidence of rutted roads marked by chariot wheels dating from the Roman Empire.[a][8] Snopes categorised this legend as "false", but commented that "it is perhaps more fairly labelled as 'True, but for trivial and unremarkable reasons'".[9] The historical tendency to place the wheels of horse-drawn vehicles approximately 5 ft (1,524 mm) apart probably derives from the width needed to fit a carthorse in between the shafts.[9] Research however has been undertaken which supports the hypothesis that "the origin of the standard gauge of the railway might result from an interval of wheel ruts of prehistoric ancient carriages".[10][better source needed] The change in gauges here suggests to me they were using human power, and then upgraded to pony's or small horses. But I guess the archaology will tell us that. Edited September 18, 2021 by Stuart Galbraith
BansheeOne Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 This reminds me how I recently visited childhood ideas of alternate history where steam power was developed in late antiquity from Heron of Alexandria's aeolipile, and Roman emperors pushed railway construction as a means of military transport and countering economic crisis in the 3rd century. I might pull up my notes and start a thread on it.
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 Im surprised the Romans or Greeks did not. They invented everything else.
bojan Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 There would be incredible problems in making (sort of) reliable high pressure vessels. Everything else was possible, if probably incredibly expensive to do.
sunday Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 Romans did make sort of high pressure piping for use in aqueducts with siphons, but one could not build a boiler out of lead. http://www.romanaqueducts.info/siphons/siphons.htm
bojan Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 In theory those could be cast from a bronze but that would be both very unreliable, inefficient and expensive. Another what if is... what if someone invented gunpowder. All chemical development was already there (Romans used K and Na nitrates as preservatives and flavors), someone just needed to mix right components. It would have been possible (well, still expensive and unreliable...) to cast small cannons from bronze. Would that be able to change warfare?
sunday Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, bojan said: In theory those could be cast from a bronze but that would be both very unreliable, inefficient and expensive. Another what if is... what if someone invented gunpowder. All chemical development was already there (Romans used K and Na nitrates as preservatives and flavors), someone just needed to mix right components. It would have been possible (well, still expensive and unreliable...) to cast small cannons from bronze. Would that be able to change warfare? From the admittedly profane point of view on historical metallurgy, when thinking about large bronze castings in Antiquity, galley's rams come to mind. The doors of some public buildings were also cast in bronze, as well as some sculptures. But only rams as more or less mass produced objects. However, the casting quality needed was not especially high, until cast bells came to be used; seems the first cast church bells were made during the 7th century in Italy. There are records of bells being used ca. 400AD, but probably those were smaller, forged bells. Cast bells are important with regards to the manufacture of cannon because some casting defects could impact in the sound the bell makes, and it is likely those same casting defects could result on a gun exploding. But most of that is pure speculation by my part, historical dates excepted.
Mikel2 Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 2 hours ago, bojan said: There would be incredible problems in making (sort of) reliable high pressure vessels. Everything else was possible, if probably incredibly expensive to do. It is very doubtful the Romans would have been able to develop such high pressure vessels, but the industrial revolution that led to such technologies could have been triggered with the technology the Romans had. Too bad advanced societies have such a tendency to self-destruct.
Ivanhoe Posted September 18, 2021 Posted September 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Im surprised the Romans or Greeks did not. They invented everything else. Splitter!
JWB Posted September 21, 2021 Posted September 21, 2021 Mysterious Skeletons of an Unknown People Rewrite The History of Japanese Ancestry. https://www.sciencealert.com/mysterious-skeletons-of-an-unknown-people-are-rewriting-the-history-of-japan-ancestry?fbclid=IwAR3p0n9K7DlsJRQqELUl6u_2esstvKYIT7EKt-8OWNgWi5FaxU6E1NRpgYs
Ivanhoe Posted October 20, 2021 Posted October 20, 2021 https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/diver-finds-crusader-sword-israel Quote An amateur diver exploring the waters around Haifa, Israel , found a medieval weapon. Shlomi Katzin discovered what was determined to be a Crusader sword from around 1100 A.D. that reemerged from the shifting sands of the seafloor on Saturday after 900 years. He brought it to shore and turned it over to Israel’s Antiquity Authority, a move that earned him a certificate of good citizenship from the agency.
Ivanhoe Posted October 23, 2021 Posted October 23, 2021 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/tree-rings-radioactive-carbon-signs-vikings-north-america-rcna3383 Quote Vikings from Greenland — the first Europeans to arrive in the Americas — lived in a village in Canada’s Newfoundland exactly 1,000 years ago, according to research published Wednesday. Scientists have known for many years that Vikings — a name given to the Norse by the English they raided — built a village at L’Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland around the turn of the millennium. But a study published in Nature is the first to pinpoint the date of the Norse occupation.
DB Posted October 23, 2021 Posted October 23, 2021 It's good to have a date, I suppose, but what happened to them? Did they build some houses to allow them to live whilst they built up stores and made repairs to ships to allow them to sail back home again, or did they try to colonise and simply died out?
sunday Posted October 23, 2021 Posted October 23, 2021 6 hours ago, DB said: It's good to have a date, I suppose, but what happened to them? Did they build some houses to allow them to live whilst they built up stores and made repairs to ships to allow them to sail back home again, or did they try to colonise and simply died out? Another question is how there are no signals of they bringing Old World infectious diseases to the New World.
bojan Posted October 23, 2021 Posted October 23, 2021 Got lucky w/o too much bunga bunga with the natives?
sunday Posted October 23, 2021 Posted October 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, bojan said: Got lucky w/o too much bunga bunga with the natives? That is how syphilis came to Europe, the other direction.
R011 Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 8 hours ago, sunday said: Another question is how there are no signals of they bringing Old World infectious diseases to the New World. Given the distance from Europe and the small numbers, not refreshed by continuous immigration, it's likely no one had anything especially communicable, especially if their contact with the indigenous people was limited.
DB Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 Vikings were well known for keeping it in their pants when they met natives.
TonyE Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 4:35 PM, DB said: It's good to have a date, I suppose, but what happened to them? Did they build some houses to allow them to live whilst they built up stores and made repairs to ships to allow them to sail back home again, or did they try to colonise and simply died out? According to the sagas they made seasonal visits, sometimes staying during winter until traveling back to Greenland in the spring.
Ivanhoe Posted October 25, 2021 Posted October 25, 2021 4 hours ago, TonyE said: According to the sagas they made seasonal visits, sometimes staying during winter until traveling back to Greenland in the spring. The original snowbirds. lol
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