XXJ - Chinese fifth generation fighter programme

[Corinthian]

Just got thinking, has there ever been a twin tailed delta winged aircraft in service before this?

 

 

 

Unless you mean twin-engined deltas with twin rudders.... (didn't mean to be pedantic)

[pikachu]

Already posted this in post #167 on this thread, but this is a "playable" mockup of what a J-20's cockpit actually looks like. It was shown at Zhuhai, IIRC, and people could jump in to play with it. The dimensions are of course wrong for a proper cockpit and the placement of panels much more sparse. It's basically a game console.

 

 

Here is a leaked pic of the cockpit in the J-20 simulator from a few years back (2008-2009). As you can see, much more compact but exactly the same arrangement. You can even see a proper representation of the plane on the left.

 

 

If we look at the grainy pic in post #214, the dials and knobs we see there are the ones on the top of the mockup just below the HUD. The actual cockpit screens can't be seen due to their low placement. The J-20's cockpit is much larger than that of the F-35, about the size of the F-22's. This is why more panels can be fitted.

[Corinthian]

No water bottle holders. Pffft.... How primitive. I am not impressed.

[Archie Pellagio]

Already posted this in post #167 on this thread, but this is a "playable" mockup of what a J-20's cockpit actually looks like. It was shown at Zhuhai, IIRC, and people could jump in to play with it. The dimensions are of course wrong for a proper cockpit and the placement of panels much more sparse. It's basically a game console.

 

Complete with Thrustmaster Cougar controls...

 

If we look at the grainy pic in post #214, the dials and knobs we see there are the ones on the top of the mockup just below the HUD. The actual cockpit screens can't be seen due to their low placement. The J-20's cockpit is much larger than that of the F-35, about the size of the F-22's. This is why more panels can be fitted.

 

The photo of the J20 cockpit in the actual plane looks completely different to this one - there is a prominent centreline bank of dial instruments, there is a single old school MFD on the left, one on the lower right with a radar dedicated screen on the upper right.

 

I looks remarkably like an upgraded Flanker cockpit.

[Yalmuk]

Here another cockpit simulator from Zhuhai exhibition.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Yalmuk

[Archie Pellagio]

So which is it?

There are three radically different air show mockups none of which bear the slightest resemblence of what is actually in the photo of the flying aircraft.

[Guest JamesG123]

Does it really matter?

[pikachu]

So which is it?

There are three radically different air show mockups none of which bear the slightest resemblence of what is actually in the photo of the flying aircraft.

 

There are three mockups, but each has a different context. The consensus right now, based on the old leaked photo, is that the "game console" cockpit is the right one for J-20 because it bears closest resemblance to said leaked photo, albeit in a game console setup, and is the only one that fits the grainy pic of the real plane's cockpit. The second mockup I posted in #167:

 

 

is suspected to be either an avionics company's fantasy cockpit (for potential upgrade of existing fighters) or the intended cockpit for the rumored Shenyang competitor/complement stealth fighter program. Either way, it definitely shows a very unambiguous conventional planform representation with some LO shaping.

 

The Zhuhai mockup posted by Yalmuk is intended as an upgrade to existing light fighters. Note the blatant ripping-off of the F-35's arrangement and ambiguous planform of the aircraft representation.

 

As for the lack of resemblance of the "game console" cockpit to the one on the plane, I'm not really sure we're on the same wavelength here because it actually sounds to me like you're describing the same cockpit layout. To quote:

 

there is a prominent centreline bank of dial instruments

 

There is also one very visible on the console, right under the HUD and partially covered by the tarp. Unless you mean the bezel separating the two MFDs (as in the simulator).

 

there is a single old school MFD on the left

 

Which can be seen prominently on the console, as well as

 

one on the lower right

 

and also

 

with a radar dedicated screen on the upper right

 

I think the best way to explain what I mean is to post these pictures to show how the Chinese internet community has interpreted the real cockpit pic. All numbers point to the same objects on the actual layout:

 

1) The "dial box", protruding from the console with the HUD mounted on top. This is differently-shaped in the simulator and "game console" and is not very defined in the real plane.

2) The top-right screen. Not sure if this is the radar-dedicated one you mentioned. I only see it as a black rectangle in the real plane, but it does appear to display radar data in the "game console". This appears different in each layout. In the "game console" it's tiny, whereas in the simulator it's much larger but recessed while in the actual cockpit it seems smaller but protrudes out. The current consensus is that the "game console" size is correct.

3) The bottom-right indicator panel/screen. Missing from the simulator photo because it's outside the right margin but clearly visible on both the real plane and "game console".

4) The right side main MFD. In the real plane it looks smaller because it's partially covered by the protrusion of the top right screen (2). However, you can clearly see a bit to the left and under the "dial box" a part of the top bezel for the MFD indicating its real size. Also, the "game console" seems to have only one ultra-wide-screen MFD split into two halves with no bezel separating them. Perhaps what you meant by a "centreline bank of dial instruments" is the bezel separating the two screens in the real plane and simulator.

5) The left side main MFD. This appears to be off in the real plane, thus completely black except for the bezel.

 

 

 

[Corinthian]

I have to admit, those MFDs look quite big.

[Archie Pellagio]

The area labelled #4 in the photo of the real cockpit is in no way shape or form an MFD, in fact that whole labeling is pure fantasy and bears no resemblance to any of the mock-up cockpits.

[Yalmuk]

Some of those could be J-10B cockpit mock-up's.

 

Not sure what cockpit this is supposed to be, but my guess is J-10A.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Yalmuk

[pikachu]

The area labelled #4 in the photo of the real cockpit is in no way shape or form an MFD, in fact that whole labeling is pure fantasy and bears no resemblance to any of the mock-up cockpits.

 

Let's try this again.

 

Original picture:

 

 

The "dials box" under the HUD outlined:

 

 

The top right screen protruding out outlined:

 

 

The MFD itself, with part of the right side obscured by the protrusion of the top right screen outlined:

 

 

All three components outlined:

 

 

The basis for similarity is the number of screens and their positioning relative to each other. The actual layout is of course different in detail from the mockup. After all, the mockup is just a game console. Object 4 in the real cockpit shot is a MFD with part of it obscured by object 2.

[BansheeOne]

I still see analog clock-type instruments in the area labeled 4. Unless it's an MFD displaying analog clock-type instruments.

 

The thing is, all the layouts in the pictures on this thread are pretty generic for modern fighter planes, so it's kind of a stretch to draw any detailed conclusions for the real thing from the various mockups.

[pikachu]

I still see analog clock-type instruments in the area labeled 4. Unless it's an MFD displaying analog clock-type instruments.

 

The thing is, all the layouts in the pictures on this thread are pretty generic for modern fighter planes, so it's kind of a stretch to draw any detailed conclusions for the real thing from the various mockups.

 

Agreed. I'm just relaying opinions from the Chinese internet. Actually, if you've played around with publicly-accessible mockups of Chinese equipment before, the most immediate thing you'd notice is that they're el cheapo and very toy-ish. I've done this with mockups of the TC and gunner's sights for the ZTZ-99 tank in the Beijing Military Museum and a mockup of the J-10's cockpit in the Chinese Aviation Museum and they're just toys. The placement of equipment and representation of how they work are both unrealistic and there are a lot of bling. The TC "simulator" in the Mil Museum had panels and lights that just light up and the J-10 cockpit mockup had "screens" that were actually just lighted static images. I have a nagging suspicion that the mockup of the J-20 cockpit has only one real screen (the extra-wide one) and the rest are just bling.

 

Anyway, here's a model from AVIC showing what the Shenyang stealth fighter was (is?) meant to look like:

 

 

If you recall, this planform shape is very similar to that shown on one of the Zhuhai mockups (first pic in post #233). Twin-engined F-35! I can definitely see why the higher-ups rejected it.

 

Personally I call bull that China would try to develop two stealth fighters at the same time. I'm guessing Shenyang is just showing in public their rejected design to drum up a bit of popular support.

 

More interestingly, Chinese copy of X-47:

 

[Archie Pellagio]

Dude, all the MS paints in the world aren't going to make those dials an MFD.

 

Let it go...

[tankerwanabe]

I dunno. It sure worked on the old Star Trek series.

[CaptLuke]

Comments from Aviation Week's Ares blog after actually climbing into a J10:

 

We were allowed into the cockpit but not allowed to photograph it but I can tell you that the cockpit looked like a cross between a modern glass cockpit and an older generation analog one. There were three fairly large (I'd say about 20cm x 12cm) digital display screens, two set on the same level and the third set between them and lower. Above them and raised over the windscreen was what I can only assume was a heads-up display, but instead of being flat it was like a half-opened book with the spine facing you. It was dark glass. To the left, right and below the display screens were the various dials which appeared to be analog.

 

Ares goes to china

[tankerwanabe]

Anyone knows how many of these Indiginous J-10s the Chinese are able to produce per month?

[Yalmuk]

Comments from Aviation Week's Ares blog after actually climbing into a J10:

 

 

 

Ares goes to china

 

Here is good pic of it's cockpit.

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=33263&view=findpost&p=890051

Edited September 30, 2011 by Yalmuk

[Archie Pellagio]

Here is good pic of it's cockpit.

 

 

Exactly

 

 

F/A-18

 

Su-30MKI

 

F16C

Edited September 30, 2011 by Luke Y

[Jeff]

Twin-engined F-35! I can definitely see why the higher-ups rejected it.

 

More interestingly, Chinese copy of X-47:

We used to call things B-1ski and Concordski etc for Russian copies, what's the Chinese version?

[Guest JamesG123]

I think the statement being made is, "Anything you can do, we can do... cheaper/quicker?"

[pikachu]

Anyone knows how many of these Indiginous J-10s the Chinese are able to produce per month?

 

At the moment 0. They're transitioning to the J-10B and that plane's prototypes only got their WS-10 engines last month. I'm assuming production is on hold until flight testing is finished. The actual production rate for J-10 and -10A was about 54 a year.

[Archie Pellagio]

I think the statement being made is, "Anything you can do, we can do... cheaper/quicker?"

 

Pick any two, lose the third:

 

[Corinthian]

We used to call things B-1ski and Concordski etc for Russian copies, what's the Chinese version?

 

Add a Wei, Pei, Li, or Fu perhaps?

 

J-20 Lightningfu...?