Korean artillery exchange.

[JOE BRENNAN]

I wonder if South Korea used its fire finding radar and hit back at North Korean artillery guns that were doing the shooting, or if they just hit pre-planned targets.

According to various ROK press and blog accounts: official source said a unit w/ 6 K-9 155mm SPH's on Yeonpyeong-do returned fire. They had a counterbattery radar. Some sources said TPQ-36, but the official source didn't specify the type [edit: press acounts from months ago confirm AN/TPQ-36]. Both radar info and 'other' info (visual, previously known locations?) was used. 80 rounds were fired. The NK fire in turn, besides killing the two ROK Marines and injuring other servicemen and civilians, and damaging civilian property, seemed mainly aimed at the K-9 unit's position. One K-9 was hit by a dud and another suffered damage to its FCS, presumably from fragments; but both were returned to action quickly. There were two NK barrages a couple of hours apart, the first a 'TOT' barrage by many guns which was not detected in advance, a source of comment in ROK press/blogs. The K-9's had been firing their normal monthly practice that morning (the NK's had sent a telex demanding it stop, their pretext for the attack). This (the positioning of the guns, and radar) was given as one reason the K-9's took around 13 minutes to return fire.

[edit: next day's news stories have official comments about previous reliability problems with those radars-to be further clarified]

 

Not directly relevant to this incident but interesting, the most numerous defensive guns on Yeonpyeong and nearby Baeknyeong-do (near where the ROKN corvette was torpedoed recently) are 90mm from M47's, in some cases mounted separately, other cases the old tanks are 'relocatable' pillboxes; reportedly around 100 on the two islands.

 

 

 

Joe

Edited November 24, 2010 by JOE BRENNAN

[GK Dundas]

One get the distinct impression that the NORKS want to go out in a blaze of glory ,But thus far no one has obliged them. .....This must be extremely frustrating for the fat little midget that runs the place.

After all he's holding up his end of the deal.

[Ken Estes]

Anything to do with the time of the year, the NK timing? Not exactly campaigning season on the peninsula. Still, this will require a flurry of US reinforcements to demonstrate resolve, etc. This is yet another confirmation of the new look in the forces, making the all-volunteer active and reserve components even more stretched than to date, if that were possible.

[TonyE]

Not directly relevant to this incident but interesting, the most numerous defensive guns on Yeonpyeong and nearby Baeknyeong-do (near where the ROKN corvette was torpedoed recently) are 90mm from M47's, in some cases mounted separately, other cases the old tanks are 'relocatable' pillboxes; reportedly around 100 on the two islands.

 

These islands are hereby decleared sacred to and by the Kitsap Militia.

[Archie Pellagio]

Not directly relevant to this incident but interesting, the most numerous defensive guns on Yeonpyeong and nearby Baeknyeong-do (near where the ROKN corvette was torpedoed recently) are 90mm from M47's, in some cases mounted separately, other cases the old tanks are 'relocatable' pillboxes; reportedly around 100 on the two islands.

 

 

 

Joe

 

Now we know where the ARVN examples all went after Saigon fell...

[Guest JamesG123]

Manning that fixed pedistal gun would be no fun at all if things go sideways...

[Doug Kibbey]

Manning that fixed pedistal gun would be no fun at all if things go sideways...

 

They are reasonably well-protected from .38 Spl. snub-nose revolver fire.

[Ken Estes]

They are reasonably well-protected from .38 Spl. snub-nose revolver fire.

...from the front.

 

Good to see the fearsome M47 in wait for its prey. They'll never know what hit 'em!

 

This incident gives new info on life as a Korean Marine. The 'civilian' population of the island I would presume are their families, at least in part. When they take to the underground bunkers, if gives an additional dimension to being a military dependent.

[thekirk]

Ken, actually, those islands are pretty heavily settled with civilian farmers and fishermen. South Korea is a very land-poor country, and it's not easily understood by people who haven't been there. There's a lot of land, maybe the majority of it, that's simply not available for use because of it's mountainous nature. Because of that, every little postage-stamp size bit of arable land is used by the locals, and used hard.

 

In Korea, you have these huge issues with training land, because of what is termed "encroachment". Most of the training areas even up on the DMZ have had farmers move in, and occupy them, and to a degree that most of us would find baffling. You'll turn around, and find someone putting in a rice paddy and a farmhouse where your map shows military land is supposed to be.

 

If anyone remembers that accident from when those two schoolgirls were killed by the AVLB, a major contributory factor to that happening was the fact that farmers like the girl's father have steadily nibbled away at the land the training areas are on, putting in rice paddies, fields, and all sorts of little buildings and homes where the military is expecting to find training land. The most terrifying thing I can remember happening to me while I was in Korea was leading a convoy out of the training area with a HMMWV in front of a column of tracked vehicles in the fog, and discovering that the road the map showed as being inside our training area now went right through a farmyard full of small animals and children. None of whom had any apparent survival instincts when it came to large tracked vehicles...

[Ken Estes]

Well, apart from TheKirk's exposition on himself in ROK, we could use some real info on this 2.7 sq mi islet, some 7.5 miles from the NK coast.

 

 

Yeonpyeong Island: A history

South Korea's Yeonpyeong Island has been the focal point of several violent skirmishes between North and South Korea over the past 60 years.

By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai and Peter Hutchison 9:18PM GMT 23 Nov 2010

The archipelago, which North Korea laid claim to in the 1970s, lies in the Yellow Sea near the Northern Limit Line – the sea border between the two countries.

 

Around 1,600 people live on the island, mostly fishermen drawn by the rich surrounding waters, as well as a garrison of 1,000 South Korean sailors.

 

Famed for its Kumouuri, a speciality spiced crab, the cluster of islands should be a scene of perfect tranquillity but its proximity to North Korea makes it a point of tension.

 

Aware of the precarious situation of the island, South Korea maintains one of its newest class of "patrol killer" guided-missile ships, designed for close-range naval skirmishes, nearby.

 

The island, lined with tank traps and trenches, and equipped with 19 fully-stocked bomb shelters in which residents conduct monthly air raid drills, is permanently ready for war.

 

In 1999 a total of 30 sailors died in what become known as the first battle of Yeonpyeong when North and South Korean sailors exchanged gunfire over two separate days in June.

 

Eight years ago, the Second Battle of Yeonpyeong saw 13 North Korean sailors and four South Korean sailors killed as gunboats traded fire across the Northern Limit Line.

 

The 85mm guns fired by the North Korean ships were loud enough to rattle the windows of residents on the island, according to reports from locals.

 

In June this year, North Korea responded to joint military drills by the United States and South Korea in the Yellow Sea by firing 130 artillery shells towards Yeonpyeong Island.

 

However, only ten of these actually cross the Northern Limit Line and none caused any damage, landing in the sea.

 

Yesterday's violence, which saw dozens of shells rain down on their homes and set more than 60 buildings on fire, was the first artillery strike on South Korean soil since 1953.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/southkorea/8155486/Yeonpyeong-Island-A-history.html

Related Articles

 

Why North Korean strike will not trigger world war three 23 Nov 2010

Analysis: worst attack on civilians in 20 years 23 Nov 2010

North Korea attacks South 24 Nov 2010

Timeline: North Korea's conflict with the South 23 Nov 2010

Amateur footage of attack on Yeonpyeong 23 Nov 2010

Pictures: North Korea shells Yeonpyeong Island 23 Nov 2010

The residents of Yeonpyeong Island, which spans just three miles, have become used to living in fear as their homes sit just seven-and-a-half miles from the North Korean border.

[thekirk]

Ah, yes... The typical graceful response from Ken. Remind me again why I bother trying to be polite? Or, why I should have any respect, whatsoever, for our learned correspondent?

[Chris Werb]

Would the North Korean artillery not have been firing from hardened sites - perhaps dug through from the reverse slope of a hill with just an opening for the muzzle?

 

Also, what was the point in having the M47's gun in a near as damnit completely open mount, when they could have just left it in the tank as they did with the other example?

Edited November 24, 2010 by Chris Werb

[thekirk]

Would the North Korean artillery not have been firing from hardened sites - perhaps dug through from the reverse slope of a hill with just an opening for the muzzle?

 

Also, what was the point in having the M47's gun in a near as damnit completely open mount, when they could have just left it in the tank as they did with the other example?

 

Yes to the first. I'm not sure what the South Korean artillery would have been able to do, since I believe most of those North Korean pieces are sited precisely as you describe. Absent a JDAM or two, they probably just raised dust in the bunkers. I don't think the South Koreans have any tube-launched bunker-buster rounds. You'd damn near need an Excalibur or other GPS-enhanced round to get any real effect on those targets.

 

As to the gun mount thing: Never underestimate South Korean military creativity. If I'm remembering what I heard correctly, some of those gun pits are filled with weapons which were initially sold to them as spare parts under military aid programs. Instead of keeping them in depots, as spares, the ROK Army mounted the damn things as weapons on locally-fabricated mounts. One of my old warrant officers was going off about this, talking about how they'd never been able to count on finding spare parts like gun tubes in the ROK Army system, when he was an adviser to a ROKA Armor unit during the 1970s. Everything that was capable of being used as a weapon was out being used as a weapon. Everything.

 

Those mounts probably date back to that era, and just haven't gone out of use. Hell, the ROK Army is only now cleaning out the arsenals, and getting rid of their M1 rifle and carbine stocks. Something like an M47 and the bits and bobs that go on it isn't going to go out of use for another generation, or so.

[Guest JamesG123]

Besides they look impressive to the untrained eye.

 

If the balloon ever goes up in Korea, you aren't going to need to worry about spare gun tubes. It will be over one way or another, to quickly. Think Six Day War.

[Ken Estes]

Besides they look impressive to the untrained eye.

 

If the balloon ever goes up in Korea, you aren't going to need to worry about spare gun tubes. It will be over one way or another, to quickly. Think Six Day War.

Think about looking at a map.

[TSJ]

Well, from what my son tells me and he's seen it up close, if North Korea has any plans on invading through the DMZ, they will have to crawl up mountainsides and cliffs in order to advance. They will have more than a few suprises waiting for them in the valleys. I assume North Korea has done the same thing on their side. Air power will be the deciding factor.

[Archie Pellagio]

Plus given the nature of any Korean War MkII and the fact bot sides have universal service, there is no shortage of men to man them.

Even if they get one or two rounds off, they could be very economical in the math of war. (one ship vs three or so draftees or reservists)

[Chris Werb]

Think about looking at a map.

 

It's funny you should say that Ken. I tried looking at the island in google maps. The coverage was OK, but not 'spy on your foxy next door neighbour nude sunbathing' quality. Do countries have a say in how high definition the imagery of their countries or sensitive areas thereof go on google?

[TonyE]

Chris, google and find the dutch navalbase Den Helder on google earth, it seems that to some extent they might have some saying on these issues.

Edited November 25, 2010 by TonyE

[Archie Pellagio]

The US at least has a say in certain areas. KAF definitely is low res.

[JOE BRENNAN]

Some further clarifications based on ROK defense ministry statements in press:

 

-of the 6 K-9's, one was already out of action from maintenance issue, another was hit in the barrel by the dud shell, and neither was able to fire during the incident

 

-the TPQ-36 failed to locate the firing positions of guns in the first barrage, and return fire v Mudo must have been based on previous coordinates. The radar gave firing locations during the second barrage.

 

Some of the 90 mm's are well protected, such as this gun position in a cliff of Baeknyeong-do, presumably also containing a 90 mm. But many countries have emplaced coastal guns in basically open mounts (there were many US examples, by no means all were in disappearing, masking parapet or casemated positions) which can work OK depending on location and related to that, enemy's ability to scope out the location in advance and hit small fixed locations accurately. Just installing the turret/burying the tank might be a better option though for close range direct fire at least (a great book on this is "Tank Turret Fortifications" by Neil Short; I knew a number of countries had, but the variety of examples in the book is remarkable). One country not covered is NK, which has been digging in tanks as coast defence weapons since the Korean War, mentioned as a common practice in beefing up their defences against any repeat of Inchon, in Soviet sources.

 

 

Joe

[Soren Ras]

Some further clarifications based on ROK defense ministry statements in press:

 

-of the 6 K-9's, one was already out of action from maintenance issue, another was hit in the barrel by the dud shell, and neither was able to fire during the incident

 

 

If true, very nicely shot.

 

But most of the luck seems to have landed on the target in this case. Hope the SK soldiers are all right. Even a dud that accurate can ruin your entire day.

 

--

Soren

[RETAC21]

It's funny you should say that Ken. I tried looking at the island in google maps. The coverage was OK, but not 'spy on your foxy next door neighbour nude sunbathing' quality. Do countries have a say in how high definition the imagery of their countries or sensitive areas thereof go on google?

 

Google relies on aerial photography if the area is not covered by their satellite, which is provided by local providers who abide by local rules, so the Dutch bases are pixelated at the better resolution and "clear" as you zoom out.

Certainly, local governments don't have a say, as otherwise the Iranians wouldn't acomodate having their facilities photographed as easily.

[Guest JamesG123]

Think about looking at a map.

 

Not literally. But given the concentration of fortifications and firepower, any full scale war is going to burn hot and fast. More like the Arab-Israeli wars than 1950.

[Doug Kibbey]

 

 

Joe

 

That's not the entrance to Tomas' place?