Van Owen Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 I should have likely posted this in the gaming section, but I felt here would give me better results. I'm creating an army for a small nation, and I came up with the following composition and partial equipment list: LANDSWEER 18,000 personnel2 infantry Brigades + support 1 armored brigade + support1 artillery brigade + support Equipment Tavor TAR-21Merkava Mk IV MBTPatria AMVPatria Tank destroyer (AMV with lightened MBT turret)Gepard SPAAGHIMARS--MLRSPzH 2000 (Modified with thermal sleeve) The problem is I don't the exact number of any of these system per unit. How many tanks does the Armored Brigade have, for example? You'd think it would be easy to look up online, but you get only partial data, and all kinds of variations, as no single nation can agree on a standard setup & I don't know which one is best for such a small army. Mainly, I need to know the number of men, and AFVs and artillery pieces per each kind of Brigade. I know that infantry Brigades are supposed to have a tank element, for example, but I can't find how many, and likewise, the Armored Brigade will have infantry mounted in IFVs, though again, how many? (though for this scenario, I'd planned on using the Merkavas as their own IFVs for the Armored Brigade.) I'm assuming the infantry are all mounted, except for support guys.
Marek Tucan Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 (edited) Drop the armor bde and instead set up a rapid reaction bde.Generally each infantry bde shopuld have 2-3 mech inf battalions and one tank bn (say 30-40 MBTs).Rapid reaction bde 2 mech bn's and a paratroop bn.Artillery bde would be a frame to keep support for all three maneuver bdes, so 3 artillery battalions, 18-24 tubes each, plus a rocket artillery bn (or you can have rocket batteries in the arty bn's).You'd also need atleast one AD bde. For comparison, Czech Armed Forces, Land element: -Joint Forces --4th Rapid Deployment Brigade---41st Mechanised Bn (Transition from BMP2 to Pandur)---42nd mechanised Bn (same)---43rd Mechanised Airborne Bn (Landrovers as squad vehicles)---44th Light Motorised Bn (Light infantry, landrovers etc.) --7th Mechanised Bde---71st Mechanised Bn (BMP-2)---72nd Mechanised Bn (same)---73rd Tank Bn (31xT-72M4)---74th Light Motorised Bn --Artillery Bde---2x Artillery Bn --Engineer Bde --Recon Battalion ...etc, lots of support units. For AD, from Air Force:--SAM Bde---SA-6 Bn---SA-13/RBS-70 Bn Each mech bn has 3 companies, motar battery and recon platoon, each bde has recon company etc. Edited September 6, 2010 by Tuccy
Archie Pellagio Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 A small nation? And at those numbers you'd want to be centralising around Bn's with Bde's as merely administrative HQ's.
Marek Tucan Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 A small nation? And at those numbers you'd want to be centralising around Bn's with Bde's as merely administrative HQ's. Well, the numbers add up to ca. 8-10 million nation (in no pressing need for army) Agree with the Bde remark.
R011 Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 An independent brigade will normally have three or four infantry or armour battalions plus a reconnaissance company, an artillery battalion, an air defence element of up to company (battery) size, and an engineer element of at least company size. An armour battalion will have three or four companies of three or four platoons usually of four tanks with at least two more tanks in each company and battalion HQ. A mechanized infantry battalion will be similar and also will have a combat support company with a mortar platoon typically of four 120 mm mortars, a recce platoon, engineer ("pioneer") platoon, and anti tank platoon with at least six to eight AT vehicles. An artillery battalion will have three or four batteries of six or eight 155 mm SP guns. A battery will often have tree or four artillery observers vehicles. You may also have an aviation element, perhaps a squadron of about twenty-four attack/scout helicopters and some utility helicopters, say a dozen,for transport and medivac. A mechanized infantry brigade will normally have one armour and two or three infantry battalions. An armoured brigade will normally have two or three armour battalions and one or two infantry battalions. A "balanced" brigade or two each is normally considered an armoured brigade.
FALightFighter Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 Smallest tank BN I know of is the Soviet 31 tank model- 1 HQ tank, plus 3 COs, each of 10 tanks- 3 x 3-tank platoons, but HQ tank. Largest tank BN I know if is US AoE 58 tank organization- 2 HQ tanks, plus 4 COs, each of 14 tanks- 3 x 4-tank platoons, plus 2 HQ tanks. Current US organization is a Combined Arms BN with 2 x 14-tank COs + 1 HQ tank (29 tanks) AND 2 x 14-IFV COs + 1 HQ Bradley + 3 M3 CFVs (32 Bradleys). They used to have an EN CO, which added another 14 Bradleys. Is your 18000 pax cap just for BDEs, or does the Army overhead (operational and institutional) fall into it, too. Assuming that is just the BDEs, I would form: 3 balanced BDEs-3711 is base TOE #s for a current US HBCT- adding 2 additional CABs adds another 1250, plus 200 for 2 additional firing batteries, plus another 370 for 2 additional FSCs (for the 2 additional CABs) = 5531. Even with additional security elements for the BCT HQ, we can keep the whole thing to 5500 by reducing the CAV SQDN to a robust troop.16500. I would not have an artillery BDE, just 2 separate MLRS/HIMARS BNs, at 234ea + 142ea (2 additional firing batteries) + 166 (TAB in each BN) = 918 17418 total. Put the remaining 582 into an ADA battery for each BDE, or maybe a security company (infantry) in each MLRS BN.
Van Owen Posted September 7, 2010 Author Posted September 7, 2010 Thanks a lot! This is very helpful. I went with brigades, because I plan on eventually expanding the force. Unfortunately, the rules limit the size of the military I can have to something like 2% population, and since I'm an island, the navy and AF eat up a lot of manpower, with the navy getting the lion's share.
Richard Lindquist Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Tank companies have varied from five (early KV-1 companies) to thirty-one (early tankette companies). Normal tank companies have varied from ten (three X three tank platoons plus HQ) to twenty-two (four X five tank platoons plus HQ). Normal tank battalions have varied from twenty-one (2 X 10 tank companies plus HQ) to ninety (4 X 22 tank companies plus HQ). We will not include the French modelle 2C battalion of six 2C tanks. Likewise, mech/armd inf bns have varied from ten vehicles to 20-plus vehicles and battalions have had three or four companies plus one or more 'support" companies. Direct support artillery battalions have ranged from eight to twenty-four tubes. Engineers have varied from a platoon to a small battalion per brigade.
FITZ Posted September 20, 2010 Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) I should have likely posted this in the gaming section, but I felt here would give me better results. I'm creating an army for a small nation, and I came up with the following composition and partial equipment list: LANDSWEER 18,000 personnel2 infantry Brigades + support 1 armored brigade + support1 artillery brigade + support Equipment Tavor TAR-21Merkava Mk IV MBTPatria AMVPatria Tank destroyer (AMV with lightened MBT turret)Gepard SPAAGHIMARS--MLRSPzH 2000 (Modified with thermal sleeve) The problem is I don't the exact number of any of these system per unit. How many tanks does the Armored Brigade have, for example? You'd think it would be easy to look up online, but you get only partial data, and all kinds of variations, as no single nation can agree on a standard setup & I don't know which one is best for such a small army. Mainly, I need to know the number of men, and AFVs and artillery pieces per each kind of Brigade. I know that infantry Brigades are supposed to have a tank element, for example, but I can't find how many, and likewise, the Armored Brigade will have infantry mounted in IFVs, though again, how many? (though for this scenario, I'd planned on using the Merkavas as their own IFVs for the Armored Brigade.) I'm assuming the infantry are all mounted, except for support guys. Well, in terms of size this your troop strength of 24,000 with 4 combat brigades ranks this below Belgium in terms of manpower but much greater in terms of # of combat units and equipment - and Belgium doesn't even operate tanks anymore! With an Army numbering around 24,000 they operate a pair of mechanized brigades of 3 regimenets (battalions) equipped with wheeled LAV's, a Recce element an an artillery battalion as well as a Para-Commando Regiment of 3 battalions. The Royal Netherlands Army comes a little closer to what you are looking for but with a lot more manpower: 27,000 men with a combat element of 2 armored brigades of 1 tank and 2 mechanized infantry battalions and artillery, plus an airmobile brigade of 3 battalions and support elements. The active inventory consists I believe of some 82 Leopard 2 tanks with a war reserve of 28 more, 192 CV-90's delivered or on order and a thousand or more of the old YPR-765's (M113 AIFV). Of the 64 PZH-2000's delivered most are in storage with only 24 active (12 per brigade!). I should note the Netherlands no longer use the obsolete Gepard system but rather Stinger missiles on Fennek 4x4 vehicles and they have bought a NASAMS battery. All of the old Cold War era artillery brigades and independent battalions are gone. They sold their MLRS systems to Finland as well IIRC. As for TOE's, there are plenty of links out there but these things change all the time and one needs to develop a doctrine before one can design an army. Tanks in the west are usually organized in platoons of 4 but it could be 3 or even 5. 3 platoons usually make up a company with 1 or 2 tanks in CHQ but Canada I believe uses a 4 platoon organization. A battalion/regiment could have 3 or 4 companies plus 1-2 HQ tanks. 4 companies/squadrons was the American and British standard during the Cold War but 3 is more common today. The Dutch use 3 companies of 13 IIRC. Armored/Mechanized infantry is often organized in much the same way. A platoon of 3 rifle squads plus a platoon HQ, which may or may not have its own vehicle making for 3 or 4 vehicles in the platoon. 3 platoons per company, 3 companies and a support/heavy weapons company make a battalion. One or 2 mechanized/armored infantry battalions and a tank battalion usually make an armored brigade these days although sometimes the ratio is reversed. One thing I have to suggest though is to NOT USE THE MERKAVA as an IFV! That is not really what it is designed for. The Merkava can carry troops IN AN EMERGENCy, not as a matter of course. The infantry have no way to see out of the vehicle and thus have zero situational awareness. Ingress/egress sucks the big one and there isn't a lot of room in there for kit, never mind that you have to take half of the tanks ammunition out to carry a squad of men! Then there is the problem of the tank and the infantry do fundamentally different jobs and should be seperated. Just my humble opinion. An artillery battalion is typically composed of batteries of 6 guns with 2, 3 or 4 batteries per battalion/regiment. The British for a while were using 8-gun battalions for AS-90 and for a brief period had 4 batteries per regiment making for a whopping 32-gun organization but this lasted only a couple of years. They may still be using the 8-gun battery but with only 3 per regiment. Gepard, back when it was in use by the Belgian and Dutch armies was organized into battalions of 27 in 3 batteries of 9 vehicles which would cover an entire 3-brigade armored/mechanized division. The German's who had larger divisions deployed them in battalions of 36 vehicles (3x12). A much more modern solution might be something like ASRAD-R, up to 2 of which can be datalinked together and in turn tied into a larger air defense network, say several Giraffe AMB's for forward defense and the national air defense radar network. Edited September 20, 2010 by FITZ
WRW Posted September 21, 2010 Posted September 21, 2010 given that the Gepards are still theere but not in use - would they be any good in a ground support role if Afghanistan stick one in a exposed base - would keep the bad boys at a distance
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