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Huge classified message archive relating to Afghan war to be released by WikiLeaks


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And he should have been tried for treason too. There's a whole raft of people who should have swung back in the late '60's/early '70's.

 

are you kidding? He will be lionized in the press and applauded by the pregessives. Income from the books and speaking tours will make him rich.

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are you kidding? He will be lionized in the press and applauded by the pregessives. Income from the books and speaking tours will make him rich.

 

He's going to have to get out of Leavenworth, first. This idiot did this while subject to military justice, unlike Ellsberg. He's got a lengthy period ahead of him in Leavenworth, before he's released, and by the time he is, he'll be a footnote in someone's news story.

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And he should have been tried for treason too. There's a whole raft of people who should have swung back in the late '60's/early '70's.

 

Like William Calley perhaps - ah, sorry, he was a hero....

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Like William Calley perhaps - ah, sorry, he was a hero....

 

 

Excuse me? I know you're not suggesting that *I* consider him a hero. So just who are you implying sees him as a hero? Names please?

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Excuse me? I know you're not suggesting that *I* consider him a hero. So just who are you implying sees him as a hero? Names please?

He got away with mass murder with virtually no penalty (a slap on the wrist with a wet lettuce leaf really doesn't count does it?). Someone must have thought that he had not done anything wrong.

 

Meanwhile, the US people, and the people of their allies, have not been told the truth about the last 9 years or so. Someone lets the world have just a glimpse of what the situation is in reality and some people are calling for his lynching - or at least to give him a fair trial before he is lynched.

 

I would agree with them when they agree that Kissinger should face the consequences of his crimes, something which he has been shielded from. Lets face it, no American should ever be held accountable for crimes against humanity where it is onbly non-Americans who get killed.

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He got away with mass murder with virtually no penalty (a slap on the wrist with a wet lettuce leaf really doesn't count does it?). Someone must have thought that he had not done anything wrong.

 

Meanwhile, the US people, and the people of their allies, have not been told the truth about the last 9 years or so. Someone lets the world have just a glimpse of what the situation is in reality and some people are calling for his lynching - or at least to give him a fair trial before he is lynched.

 

I would agree with them when they agree that Kissinger should face the consequences of his crimes, something which he has been shielded from. Lets face it, no American should ever be held accountable for crimes against humanity where it is onbly non-Americans who get killed.

 

I don't agree with the lightness of Calley's sentence, but then I also don't agree with the utter lack of charges against others. "Not been told the truth"? There's a fcuking war on, and guess what, your own government as well as mine has shielded civilians from "the truth" in every war we've had.

 

As for lynching? No. Hanging. After trial. He signed non-disclosure forms. He took a fcuking oath. Breach of said sworn statements, and breaking of that special trust, entitles him to a length of Manila rope and a short drop.

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Excuse me? I know you're not suggesting that *I* consider him a hero. So just who are you implying sees him as a hero? Names please?

Fwiw, the last time that subject came up (which wasn't too long ago) no one actually called him a hero but there was certainly a decent amount of sympathy for him, which I find surprising.

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Meanwhile, the US people, and the people of their allies, have not been told the truth about the last 9 years or so. Someone lets the world have just a glimpse of what the situation is in reality and some people are calling for his lynching - or at least to give him a fair trial before he is lynched.

That's BS. There's nothing that's come out in these papers so far that hasn't been known to folks who have been following the war. If any 'people' in the US or allied states are just now hearing this and crying foul then that's their own fault for not paying any attention to the matter in the first place. The shame is on them for not doing at least a cursory bit of research on a war their soldiers have been off and fighting and dieing in for almost a decade now.

 

As to the US soldier being held who is apparently behind this leak, I have no sympathy for whatever may happen to him. Given the lack of effort wikileaks made to shield Afghan civilians in these papers, there seems to be a very real danger now put on those who have tried to help us. That's just despicable, especially by an organization claiming they're making these moves to supposedly bring to light the plight of everyday citizens. We apparently can't go after wikileaks, but we can go after this soldier.

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Fwiw, the last time that subject came up (which wasn't too long ago) no one actually called him a hero but there was certainly a decent amount of sympathy for him, which I find surprising.

 

 

I can only speak for myself, and I can pretty much guarantee that unless I was under the influence of illegal drugs (which unless administered to me without my knowledge, I wasn't) I did not voice sympathy for Calley.

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Excuse me? I know you're not suggesting that *I* consider him a hero. So just who are you implying sees him as a hero? Names please?

 

Apparently, Jimmy Carter and George Wallace.

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Fwiw, the last time that subject came up (which wasn't too long ago) no one actually called him a hero but there was certainly a decent amount of sympathy for him, which I find surprising.

 

I feel sympathy for Calley, in that he was someone who manifestly was unfit to serve in the position he was put it, and wouldn't have been where he was had other, more suitable, people done their duty and showed up to do his job. I feel the same sort of sympathy for many other mentally insufficient people who commit acts of criminal negligence while in positions of power they shouldn't have been placed into. In many cases, the system is more at fault than the individual, but you still have to hold the individual responsible for what they did.

 

Calley was someone who shouldn't have ever been in that position, in the first place, and it was only the severe lack of qualified alternatives that put him there. The system put a man into a job he wasn't capable of handling, and My Lai resulted. That's the end of my sympathy for him.

 

Doesn't change the fact that he participated in war crimes, for which he got off lightly. The man shouldn't have been where he was, in the first place, but having been there, and committed those crimes, he should have been punished a hell of a lot more severely, if only "to encourage the others...".

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Meanwhile, the US people, and the people of their allies, have not been told the truth about the last 9 years or so. Someone lets the world have just a glimpse of what the situation is in reality and some people are calling for his lynching - or at least to give him a fair trial before he is lynched.

 

 

Sorry, but just by paying attention to news and, I admit, to this here forum, the "stunning revelations" weren't. Name one thing that is such in the leaked documents:

-ISI involvement? Nope.

-MANPADS? WTH is surprising about that, esp. given the sare right in 2001 that the Taleban will use Stingers from afghan war? Casaulties to other causes are far more common.

-Commandos doing "terminations" of Taleban leaders and commanders? Again, WTF is "surprising" about that? And is there really so much significance to that? What is the difference between soldiers doing it or Predator doing it?

etc.

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Sorry, but just by paying attention to news and, I admit, to this here forum, the "stunning revelations" weren't. Name one thing that is such in the leaked documents:

 

 

One thing that is in there, by the hundreds if not thousands, is a list of names of Afghan and Pakistani nationals who have been working with Coalition forces as confidential informants. Including at least one potential Taleban defector's name, the name of his home village, names of his family....

 

The fcukers who did this should have THEIR heads sawn off with a dull butchers' knife--just like these informants and their families will have done to them.

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One thing that is in there, by the hundreds if not thousands, is a list of names of Afghan and Pakistani nationals who have been working with Coalition forces as confidential informants. Including at least one potential Taleban defector's name, the name of his home village, names of his family....

 

The fcukers who did this should have THEIR heads sawn off with a dull butchers' knife--just like these informants and their families will have done to them.

 

Ya gotta think like a Crusader for Good, Jim -- eggs, omelettes...you know the rest.

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Treason charges, anyone?

 

Don't see it. It would require a conscious decision to aid the enemy. I think Manning's thinking was either self-aggrandisisation or s simple belief that the Afghan war was wrong and the Afghani people would be better off without the American presence. I am unsure that misguidedness is sufficient to warrant a treason charge.

 

However, whereas before with just the Apache footage, I'd have been happy enough with six months and a dishonourable, now that a leak has actively put lives on the line, the prison sentence should be dramatically increased.

 

NTM

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The thing that galls me is that names and details about sources and agents are classified at a level this fucker Manning should have never had access to. There simply isn't a need for it. Hell, there are entire units of people whose job is to edit out all the details of shit like this and downgrade the classification that so you can give it to people like Manning. Unless this guy was a HUMINT guy(unbelieveable) and thus a generator of such information, there's no reason he should have had acccess. And even then only to sources he'd be collecting from. Either some fucking POS SSO needs to be executed by shooting or the entire intel classification system where Manning worked is fucked up like a football bat. S/F......Ken M

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If there was a leak revealing a hidden war crime (like the Iraq Apache case of late), I'd be cheering these guys on.

 

But leaking documents naming names and exposing all kinds of issues under OPSEC just for the sake of leaking them? The bastard ought to be handed over to a Taliban-inspired court and see how he likes it - that is, after all, what many of the exposed informants will be facing, at best. :angry2:

 

These guys didn't even have the decency to go through their own files to check if there was actually anything of significance worth leaking (ie. proof of war crimes), they just leaked it all for the shits and giggles. Assange deserves the fate that will sadly befall some poor sod who relied with his life on his identity being kept secret.

Edited by Exel
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If there was a leak revealing a hidden war crime (like the Iraq Apache case of late), I'd be cheering these guys on.

 

But leaking documents naming names and exposing all kinds of issues under OPSEC just for the sake of leaking them? The bastard ought to be handed over to a Taliban-inspired court and see how he likes it - that is, after all, what many of the exposed informants will be facing, at best. :angry2:

 

The Iraq Apache was not a war crime, so sorry. Please play again.

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The thing that galls me is that names and details about sources and agents are classified at a level this fucker Manning should have never had access to. There simply isn't a need for it. Hell, there are entire units of people whose job is to edit out all the details of shit like this and downgrade the classification that so you can give it to people like Manning. Unless this guy was a HUMINT guy(unbelieveable) and thus a generator of such information, there's no reason he should have had acccess. And even then only to sources he'd be collecting from. Either some fucking POS SSO needs to be executed by shooting or the entire intel classification system where Manning worked is fucked up like a football bat. S/F......Ken M

I was reading an article a day or so ago by a contractor who was commenting that everyone with a clearance, be they military, CIA, contractor, etc could easily look up all this stuff that got leaked when over there. He didn't even need stuff like the documents that were leaked to do his job, they were completely unrelated, but given his clearance he'd often just log in and read this stuff to help pass the time. Seemed... rather odd.

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Seems th US intel should get to the concept of "need-to-know". Agree, in past it caused some paradoxes and problems when the info was too compartmentalised to be useful (cue in the pre-0911 period) but OTOH letting everyone see everything is also a Bad Idea. Some balance needs to be found.

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Don't see it. It would require a conscious decision to aid the enemy. I think Manning's thinking was either self-aggrandisisation or s simple belief that the Afghan war was wrong and the Afghani people would be better off without the American presence. I am unsure that misguidedness is sufficient to warrant a treason charge.

 

Going through the UCMJ discussion of espionage here seems to indicate that he could be tried for espionage but not given the death penalty. If any of the people named in the documents are killed as a result of what he leaked, life in prison seems like a lenient sentence.

 

That this matter was communicated, delivered, or transmitted to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly; and
Edited by CaptLuke
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The thing that galls me is that names and details about sources and agents are classified at a level this fucker Manning should have never had access to. There simply isn't a need for it. Hell, there are entire units of people whose job is to edit out all the details of shit like this and downgrade the classification that so you can give it to people like Manning. Unless this guy was a HUMINT guy(unbelieveable) and thus a generator of such information, there's no reason he should have had acccess. And even then only to sources he'd be collecting from. Either some fucking POS SSO needs to be executed by shooting or the entire intel classification system where Manning worked is fucked up like a football bat. S/F......Ken M

 

What is so unbelievable about a 19 year old with TS clearance?

Given the vast numbers of sigs linguists and int operators (35F/M/L/whatever you guys call them)that have been recruited in the last decade, there should be nothing surprising about that as far as I can see.

These guys need a TS clearance to do their job.

 

Sounds more like a failure of the recruitment, clearance vetting, and training processes that let someone without the requisite level of maturity like this clown through and then failure to adequately monitor access in a "need to share not need to know" environment.

 

In the ADF there is no shortage of 19-24 year old TS positive vetted guys, and we tend to have much stricter recruitment processes with kids.

 

Seems th US intel should get to the concept of "need-to-know". Agree, in past it caused some paradoxes and problems when the info was too compartmentalised to be useful (cue in the pre-0911 period) but OTOH letting everyone see everything is also a Bad Idea. Some balance needs to be found.

 

"Need to share not need to know" has been the mantra of the last four or so years with concerted effort to 'change the culture' of information sharing.

This is what happens when any Tom, Dick or Harry has access and can plug in a fucking USB stick and burn CDs!

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The thing that galls me is that names and details about sources and agents are classified at a level this fucker Manning should have never had access to

 

Hmm.. I'm going to disagree with you on that one. Unless it's a high-level source of the sort that they are run by the Humint teams and a 'handler', they pretty much do need to put things in pretty available standards. (Humint did have sources we didn't know who they were). Over a three year period, how many different units are going to rotate through an area? They're going to need to know who was talking to their predecessors, or their predecessors predecessors, and won't have the time to go sitting through code books. Especially since the people doing the talking to these informants are probably going to be lieutenants, captains, staff sergeants and sergeants first class, and not of the M.I. branch either. They certainly won't have the time or inclination to go sitting through codes or waiting for RFIs to be processed. You can't even lock it down by AO, as Afghan civilians don't operate with the same unit boundaries we do.

 

The 'share information' model works in this instance, the Strategic Corporal needs to know the information at a lower level much like his lower level is so important. It does, however, work on the principle that you don't have active idiots like Manning.

 

NTM

Edited by Manic Moran
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What is so unbelievable about a 19 year old with TS clearance?

Given the vast numbers of sigs linguists and int operators (35F/M/L/whatever you guys call them)that have been recruited in the last decade, there should be nothing surprising about that as far as I can see.

These guys need a TS clearance to do their job.

 

It's Top Secret//SCI which means Sensitive COMPARTMENTED Information. There's a bunch of general compartments which have high user access and then there are Special Access Programs which typically have by-name access. Manning and all sorts of other intel analysts can be read into the various caveats, therefore being able to get access when they have a need to know. There's no need for the VAST majority of even cleared people to know who a source or agent is. It doesn't matter to the user whether it's Source #1234A or Joe Muhammed from 123 Dakalakadaka St, the intel value is the same. Except by letting every stupid motherfucker in the system know your source, you just got him and his entire family executed with a pliars, a blowtorch and a rusty shovel. I've fucking seen and smelled it.

 

Unless it's a high-level source of the sort that they are run by the Humint teams and a 'handler', they pretty much do need to put things in pretty available standards. (Humint did have sources we didn't know who they were). Over a three year period, how many different units are going to rotate through an area? They're going to need to know who was talking to their predecessors, or their predecessors predecessors, and won't have the time to go sitting through code books. Especially since the people doing the talking to these informants are probably going to be lieutenants, captains, staff sergeants and sergeants first class, and not of the M.I. branch either. They certainly won't have the time or inclination to go sitting through codes or waiting for RFIs to be processed. You can't even lock it down by AO, as Afghan civilians don't operate with the same unit boundaries we do.

 

Handlers run agents, the US Mil does not run agents unless they want to go to prison. US mil has sources. There are many systems by which you can handle source deconfliction. We simply had paper log books of sources managed by the Bn HUMINT people; you can have the S2 do it also. There are agencies on JWICS and SIPR who handle source deconfliction. The whole purpose of knowing the source is mainly for follow up questioning by professionals; ie guys who have access and know WTF they're doing. As for timeliness, how hard is it to call back to Bn/Coy and ask if we have any info on Joe Mohamad from 123 Bakalakadaka St? The various BATS systems make this even easier. So it takes a little time, so what. It keeps your sources alive and reporting.

 

I'm all about the "Everyone is a collector" concept. But it takes more than a little knowhow and discipline to make it work. Half ass it by being lazy and/or stupid and you get people killed in very ugly fashions.

 

Shit like this is why we should never have put conventional forces into A-stan. S/F....Ken M

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The Iraq Apache was not a war crime, so sorry. Please play again.

 

If deliberately shooting up civilians who come to the aid of injured civilians shot up earlier by mistake by the same trigger pullers does not qualify as one, then what does?

 

A blind man can see that the people rushing to the scene to help the wounded are not armed. The pilots ought to be prosecuted for criminal negligence, if nothing else.

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