German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?

[TonyE]

It is certainly better than some of the alternatives mentioned earlier this year, but is there no mentioned concern (other than among Tanknet denizens) over the very small number of artillery units in this planned future organisation?

[Ssnake]

All "green" battalions come with organic mortars in the 5th company.

All tube artillery battalions are equipped with PzH 2000, representing about as much firepower as at least twice the number of M109 equivalent battalions. So it's not that bad, actually.

[BansheeOne]

Actually the Panzergrenadier battalions haven't had a 5th company with mortars for quite some time, and I wouldn't know they're getting them back. Light infantry still has them of course and is about to get the first eight Wiesel 2 Mörserkampfsysteme (whether there'll ever be enough for all battalions is another question).

[Ssnake]

Ah. Argh. Well, aside from those three PzH 2000 in Afghanistan German artillery has seen about as much action as the tank battalions lately.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Ssnake

[BansheeOne]

Pretty colorful charts on future basing of army formations.

 

1st Panzer Division with Panzerlehrbrigade 9, Panzerbrigade 21 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 41:

 

 

10th Panzer Division with Panzerbrigade 12, Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 37:

 

 

Division Fast Forces:

 

 

French-German Brigade:

 

 

The future level of ambition, according to a briefing by the Inspector of the Army, is to supply

 

- task forces for two simultaneous stabilization operations with a sustained total of 5,000 soldiers

- the core of a multi-national command element

- the army contingent to a joint helicopter element, and

- contributions to special capabilities like OMLTs or multi-national mission HQs

 

or

 

- with six to twelve months warning, a division with two mechanized brigades, sufficient divisional troops and capabilities to integrate multi-national brigades and staff

 

plus

 

- national forces for evacuation operations

- contributions to EU Battlegroups and NATO Response Force

- homeland protection, especially by reserve forces.

 

The reserves will encompass

 

in the army

 

- the previously mentioned two tank and one heavy engineer battalions (the inactive artillery battalion is strangely missing from the list, but probably just an oversight)

- two mission support battalions (I thought those would be mostly divisional signals and other CSS units, but they really seem to be more like the divisional security battalions of old)

- more than 25 companies and platoons within active Panzergrenadier, infantry, reconnaissance, logistics and engineer battalions

 

with a total of 5,400 posts; in the air force

 

- three security squadrons

- three ABDR platoons

- two firefighter platoon

 

with a total of 600 posts; and in force base

 

- 25 regional security and support companies

- two NBC battalions plus one extra company

- nine MP companies

- four MI companies

- two guard (battalion?) companies

- two transport companies

- one air cargo handling company

- one pipeline engineer company

- various odds and sods, mostly on the platoon level.

 

The navy is thinking about a reserve component to the future sea battalion, and possibly floating security units depending upon further use of its current landing craft.

[TonyE]

- with six to twelve months warning, a division with two mechanized brigades, sufficient divisional troops and capabilities to integrate multi-national brigades and staff

 

It will take 6-12 months warning to get an already fully standing division operational?

[BansheeOne]

Since this is listed as an either/or to the two sustained stabilization missions, I guess it will take that long to fold in the former to do the latter. But yeah, I stumbled across that proviso too, especially since deployment of a division is supposed to be "for alliance defense". This term probably covers "good offenses" in faraway places though, as I hope you don't need a year to deploy all of an understrength division to the Polish border in case the almighty Belorussian army invades NATO ...

[rohala]

By comparisson how long did it take for the British to deploy their heavy division-sized contigents in 1991 and 2003? 6 to 12 months seem a lot.

[Sardaukar]

I guess that in no time, Finland WILL have the largest military in EU..

[rohala]

I guess that in no time, Finland WILL have the largest military in EU..

I suppose you are assuming that Greece will leave the EU?

[Sardaukar]

I suppose you are assuming that Greece will leave the EU?

 

We are already paying their salaries!

[Phil]

By comparisson how long did it take for the British to deploy their heavy division-sized contigents in 1991 and 2003? 6 to 12 months seem a lot.

 

3 months from the official announcement in 2003, although arguably, well not arguably, they could have done with another couple of weeks to sort out in-theatre distribution of kit.

 

I think 7 Bde was declared operational early November 1990 after getting the nod in early September I think. Memory is hazy but those are the dates I vaguely remember from Cordingleys book.

[BansheeOne]

Mostly believable rumors about company level of future army structure:

 

Active tank battalions will have four line companies each, one of which will be borrowed from the two inactive battalions. Panzergrenadier battalions will likely stick with three, as will light infantry battalions (plus heavy company for the latter).

 

The parachute regiments will have four line companies and one heavy, medical, support and HSS company each; one regiment tagged for airmobile operations, the other for special operations support.

 

Three of the artillery battalions will have two batteries of eight PzH 2000 each, one of eight MLRS and one recon battery. The fourth will now also be an active battalion and have three PzH 2000 batteries. Seems somebody had a stroke of sense.

 

Brigade engineer battalions will have two armored engineer companies (probably of one armored, one heavy and one EOD platoon each) and either a heavy or an amphibious company. The inactive heavy engineer battalion will be mostly geared towards domestic disaster relief and have several engineer and one heavy company.

 

The current two light air defense batteries with Ozelot and the air defense (MANPADS) company of Jägerregiment 1 will go over to the Luftwaffe and form a group along with MANTIS within the future single ground-base air defense wing.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BansheeOne

[Red Ant]

I guess that in no time, Finland WILL have the largest military in EU..

 

Before long, Finland might have the ONLY military in the EU.

[BansheeOne]

A new chart supplies some more unit names and sheds some light on future reserve units; it appears that in addition to the two inactive tank and one engineer battalions, there will be two Panzergrenadier, one Jäger and an additional engineer one, too. Of course at this point, the good old numbering system is shot all to hell, with tradition trumping method.

 

1st Panzer Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 325

- Support Mission (Security) Battalion 1 (inactive)

- Heavy Engineer Battalion 901 (inactive)

 

- Panzerlehrbrigade 9

-- Jäger Battalion 91

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 33

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 92

-- Panzerlehrbataillon 93

-- Panzer Battalion 414 (inactive)

-- Reconnaissance Lehrbataillon

-- Armored Engineer Battalion 130

-- Logistics Battalion 141

 

- Panzerbrigade 21

-- Jäger Battalion 1

-- Jäger Battalion 291 (inactive)

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 212

-- Panzer Battalion 203

-- Reconnaissance Battalion 7

-- Armored Engineer Battalion 1

-- Logistics Battalion 7

 

- Panzergrenadierbrigade 41

-- Jäger Battalion 413

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 401

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 411

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 908 (inactive)

-- Reconnaissance Battalion 6

-- Armored Engineer Battalion 803

-- Logistics Battalion 412

 

 

10th Panzer Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 131

- Artillery Batallion 345

- Support Mission (Security) Battalion 10 (inactive)

- Engineer Battalion 905 (inactive)

 

- Panzerbrigade 12

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 112

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 122

-- Mountain Panzer Battalion 8 (inactive) - I think this is an error, should be under Mountain Brigade 23

-- Panzer Battalion 104

-- Reconnaissance Battalion 8

-- Armored Engineer Battalion 4

-- Logistics Battalion 4

 

- Mountain Brigade 23

-- Mountain Battalion 231

-- Mountain Battalion 232

-- Mountain Battalion 233

-- Mountain Reconnaissance Battalion 230

-- Mountain Engineer Battalion 8

-- Mountain Logistics Battalion 8

 

- Panzergrenadierbrigade 37

-- Panzergenadier Battalion 371

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 391

-- Panzergrenadier Battalion 909 (inactive)

-- Panzer Battalion 393

-- Reconnaissance Battalion 13

-- Armored Engineer Battalion 701

-- Logistics Battalion 131

 

 

Division Fast Forces

 

- KSK

- Army Aviation Regiment 10

- Army Aviation Regiment 30

- Army Aviation Regiment 36

 

- Airborne Brigade 1

-- Paratroops Regiment 26

-- Paratroops Regiment 31

 

 

German Contingent French-German Brigade

- Jäger Battalion 291

- Jäger Battalion 292

- Artillery Battalion 295

- French-German Logistics Battalion

[BansheeOne]

Also, the Luftwaffe Missile School at Fort Bliss will be closed down after 55 years. The Flying Training Center at Holloman AFB is likely to stay as Eurofighters are alleged to be deployed there making up for the coming reduction in Tornados.

[BansheeOne]

A new chart supplies some more unit names and sheds some light on future reserve units;

 

See this link. There is some rumor that battalions will eventually be renumbered to restore the old system where everything in Brigade 1 started with 1, etc., with the Jäger battalions ending in 1, Panzergrenadiers in 2 and 3, Panzer in 4, etc.

 

There are also more detailed documents for the Luftwaffe and Marine online now.

[Leo Niehorster]

Fascinating.

 

Am I missing something: only two artillery battalions (131 and 295) ?

The other two (245 and 345) shown as Lehr units → or are these also considered as combat units for the 'emergency case' ?

 

And eight (!) engineer battalions plus one company. Almost like a Roman army. Lots of constuction.

Speaking of which, no dedicated bridge units?

 

Leo

[BansheeOne]

I think two Lehrbataillone curious too. AFAIK there should be only one, 345, formed from the current regiment of the same number and co-located with Artillery School at Idar-Oberstein where only one battery of the regiment is based so far. I'd write that down to the same reason as some other minor irregularities in the chart, like the "2011" header and the Mountain Panzer battalion not being part of the Mountain brigade; maybe some confusion crept in because one of the four artillery battalions was originally planned to be inactive, but now all will be active. I wouldn't make too much of the "Lehr" tag either, as AFAIK only one company/battery of such formations supports training, as is currently the case with the above-mentioned Artillerie-Lehrregiment 345; the PzH 2000 crews currently deployed to Afghanistan are from the same regiment, and therefore very much in action.

 

AFAIK the bridging capabilities (other than Bibers) will be concentrated in the semi-active heavy engineer battalion under 1st PzDiv. The engineers are pretty much losing all area mining capabilities, though.

[BansheeOne]

Actually the Panzergrenadier battalions haven't had a 5th company with mortars for quite some time, and I wouldn't know they're getting them back. Light infantry still has them of course and is about to get the first eight Wiesel 2 Mörserkampfsysteme (whether there'll ever be enough for all battalions is another question).

 

There's a rumor the infantry is going to get rid of 120 mm mortars overall (supposedly to be replaced by 60 mm mortars which were found to be sorely lacking in Afghanistan), and the small number of Wiesel 2 MKS procured will be secondary equipment for an artillery battery.

[Leo Niehorster]

60mm mortars?

What goes around comes around.

Is the modern version better than the World War II one?

At one time eveyrbody got rid of those because they were considered totally worthless.

[BansheeOne]

It seems German troops in Afghanistan were quite envious of other forces who had handy means to bring indirect firepower to bear quickly beyond the range of 40 mm AGLs, while their own 120 mm mortars were mostly employed for illumination due to collateral damage concerns (though I know of several instances where they fired for effect). AFAIK there's currently an accelerated program to introduce 60 mm mortars into infantry. Plus the modern types have ranges of 4,000 + meters, double to thrice that of WW II.

 

Of course I don't think this should be an either-or. We're probably in the process of rearming to fight the last war again, rather likely due to the reason we won't need more of the expensive Wiesel 2 MKS then ...

[Tomas Hoting]

On second thought, it might have been better if I had posted the info about the discussion regarding a veteran's policy for the Bundeswehr on the German Iron Cross coming back thread...

Edited April 5, 2012 by Tomas Hoting

[BansheeOne]

It seems German troops in Afghanistan were quite envious of other forces who had handy means to bring indirect firepower to bear quickly beyond the range of 40 mm AGLs, while their own 120 mm mortars were mostly employed for illumination due to collateral damage concerns (though I know of several instances where they fired for effect). AFAIK there's currently an accelerated program to introduce 60 mm mortars into infantry. Plus the modern types have ranges of 4,000 + meters, double to thrice that of WW II.

 

Among other types, the Hirtenberger M6 with 1,000 mm tube and 3,930 m range is currently being looked at, offered by Diehl as a package including ammunition with Junghans Microtec fuses.

[Ken Estes]

60mm mortars?

What goes around comes around.

Is the modern version better than the World War II one?

At one time eveyrbody got rid of those because they were considered totally worthless.

 

60mm never left the USMC since c.1940.