German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?

[BansheeOne]

New state secretary will be Stéphane Beemelmans who has accompanied de Maizière through a couple posts. He's a dual French-German citizen who served in the French cavalry, trained in Saumur.

 

I think that's some sort of payback for 1940. Always thought you can't trust those damn Huguenots.

[swerve]

New state secretary will be Stéphane Beemelmans who has accompanied de Maizière through a couple posts. He's a dual French-German citizen who served in the French cavalry, trained in Saumur.

 

I think that's some sort of payback for 1940. Always thought you can't trust those damn Huguenots.

Yup. Hans-Joachim Marseille was just a disruptive element. Look at how many fighters he wrote off!

[TonyE]

The foundations of Modern Germany, discarded.

 

The foundations of modern Germany are: Heino, Hasselhoff, Modern Talking and Dschinghis Khan.

[BansheeOne]

Says the guy whose country gave the world Alexander Rybak?

 

Also, as of tonight, Germany is ruled by Deep Purple. As a fan, the retiring minister actually wanted something from AC/DC, but that was really a little outside their capabilities ...

[BansheeOne]

Semi-substantiated rumors about future Luftwaffe structure:

 

- two fighter three multi-role wings with Eurofighter

 

- one attack wing with Eurofighter

 

- one attack wing with Tornado with nuclear participation mission

 

- one reconaissance wing with Tornado (Recce + ECR?), Heron and Eurohawk

 

- one airlift wing with 40-53 A 400M

 

- one transport wing probably with 60-66 CH-53 (transfer still not sealed)

 

- one air defense wing with two Patriot (follow-on) groups and one MANTIS group. Future subordination of Ozelot still unclear.

 

- Luftwaffe security regiment

[seahawk]

3 EF wings including JG73 or excluding JG73?

[baboon6]

The foundations of modern Germany are: Heino, Hasselhoff, Modern Talking and Dschinghis Khan.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCXMHirwW94

 

Saw them live at Sun City...a long,long time ago.

Edited March 16, 2011 by baboon6

[BansheeOne]

3 EF wings including JG73 or excluding JG73?

 

The chart says three wings period. No training units mentioned other than the installations in Italy and the US. Nobody's talking about concrete wings and bases to be kept at this time (though Büchel is pretty obvious due to the nuclear storage facilities).

 

IRIS-T SL is still considered a possible secondary missile for a "Post-Patriot" AD system after 2020.

[seahawk]

In that case. My guess

 

EF

 

JG73 Lage

JG74 Neuburg takes on Name "Richthofen"

JBG31

 

Tornado

 

JBG33 Büchel stays

AG51 and JBG32 merge and into AG51 at Jagel.

Edited March 16, 2011 by seahawk

[TonyE]

Says the guy whose country gave the world Alexander Rybak?

 

Tony thinks this is a kick way below the belt!!!

Rybak is belorusian by birth and has spent the last two years assraping our media with constant publicity. Anyway blame the east europeans with their weird taste in music as they guaranteed him victory and everlasting infamy......

 

 

Oh.....and Tony will rest his case with this... :

[TonyE]

JG73 Lage

JG74 Neuburg takes on Name "Richthofen"

JBG31

 

Tony wonders what happened to JG1 to JG72?

[Steve Duncan]

The German Air Force assigned blocks of numbers to Wings depending upon the aircraft roles.

Fighter Aircraft = 71-79

Fighter/Bomber = 31-39

Light Attack = 41-49

Reconnaissance = 51-59

Transport = 61-69

I'm not sure what, if anything, were assigned to the other numbers

[BansheeOne]

Final decision on future force structure by the new minister is advised for May 25th. Right now there are all sorts of ugly rumors about actual troop strength based upon de Maizière not objecting to the original € 8.3 bn savings goal, with various people saying the budget isn't going to pay for more than 170,000 total and some estimates going as low as 130,000. Some of that is surely the same old scare tactics though.

[BansheeOne]

One of the current "this is gonna happen to the Bundeswehr if we don't get more money than currently planned!!!!!111!!" papers, predicting a manageable total strength of just 158,000, has been making the rounds on the internet lately. Its main thrust is that if you go much lower than 175,000, trimming a little across the board doesn't make sense any more, rather you'll have to cut some capabilities en bloc. Scare tactics or not, it contains an appendix with an interesting menu of horrors detailing the personnel and yearly upkeep savings for individual capabilities:

 

 

http://augengeradeaus.net/2011/04/das-kaputtspar-papier-die-optionen/

 

Points (total):

 

• 
  Heer
  
• cut one brigade (of six planned)
  
• cut two additional battalions by double-assigning French-German Brigade units
  
• cancel Tiger procurement, phase out UH-1D, BO-105 and (VIP transport) Cougars immediately (I guess NH 90 would still come)
  
• cut Fast Forces two-star command
  
• cut Fallschirmjäger regiment (IOW, get largely out of air mobile warfare embodied by the future Fast Forces Command)
   
  Luftwaffe
  
• cut missile air defense
  
• phase out Tornado immediately (there goes nuclear participation and SEAD)
  
• cut Luftwaffe security regiment
   
  Marine
  
• phase out Type 122 frigates completely (again, Type 125 might still come)
  
• cut P-3Cs only recently acquired from the Netherlands (on cue, there was a recent report by the GAO that the Bundeswehr didn't look very closely at what they bought there, refurbishing has become much more cost and time intensiv, one of the eight planes is not planned to become flyable before next year and there is no money for the weapons planned to equip them)
   
  Sanitätsdienst
  
• reduce medical units according to overall cuts, including one Bundeswehr hospital
   
  Streitkräftebasis
  
• reduce logistics and support units according to overall cuts
  
• reduce EW units
  
• reduce Wachbataillon by 500 (from 1,800 now)
  
• reduce Armed Forces Bureau
  

 

I can see some of the items, like double-assigning the two German battalions of the F-G Brigade, getting rid of the old helicopters, trimming the Wachbattalion (don't need more ceremonial guards than combat infantry) and maybe even cutting the Luftwaffe's own infantry, but don't think - or hope - that the whole list would be allowed. Coincidently, the latest rumors about future infantry say:

 

• eight Panzergrenadier battalions, same as now
  
• six Jäger battalions, including those of F-G Brigade
  
• three Gebirgsjäger battalions, same as now
  
• two Fallschirmjäger regiments, one of which replacing the current Airmobile Jäger regiment
  

 

Speculation is that this means indeed only four of the originally six planned mechanized brigades, but also a dedicated mountain brigade plus Fast Forces Command and F-G Brigade without dual assignments.

[Red Ant]

What a pathetic state of affairs is that where a supposedly wealthy industrial nation like Germany thinks it can't even afford a puny army of 150k troops? We may as well just end this damned farce and disband the BW altogether.

[Ssnake]

One possible answer is that Germany seriously tries to cut back spending to balance the budget. Understand that there is now an amendment to the constitution which is supposed to forbid to run a deficit at all for all public bodies (with the sole exception of the federal budget, for up to 2%) from 2016 on. So, somehow, the budget must be balanced by then, and that means to reduce deficits substantially for the next four years.

 

Of course savings can and are being made in other areas as well. Whether one could save more there so that less had to be cut from defence is a personal value judgment.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Ssnake

[m4a1]

I find it concerning.

 

In my opinion, before the economics crisis the West European armed forces were reduced to the extent where no more reductions could be made without sacrifice of the combat value, especially in conventional fightin, but not only. Further reductions mean that the combat value of BW (as well as British, or Dutch Army) will be reduced even more. I know we live in peaceful times, but is 1,5-1,7 % of GDP so much that the affluent countries can't afford? Sad to hear that.

 

Are all Tornado will be withdrawn, so that the SEAD capability will be done away with, as well as some reconassiance capabilities? What will be the extent of AD cuts? And if only four mech brigades remain, does this mean that only four tank battalions will be in operation?

[a77]

What a pathetic state of affairs is that where a supposedly wealthy industrial nation like Germany thinks it can't even afford a puny army of 150k troops? We may as well just end this damned farce and disband the BW altogether.

 

 

German do not want to finance there military using borrowed money like the do US.

[BansheeOne]

Again, the latest reports should not be taken as the planned outcome and involve a good deal of scare tactics to fight for more money. It's working too, because while the new defense minister isn't attacking the goal to save € 8.3 bn. over the next five years in his budget, there are battles on the parliamentary level of what expenditures could be moved out of the budget.

 

For example, the old demand to have actual deployment costs being paid from the foreign budget has gotten new traction, as well as reversing the bullshit that all Bundeswehr bases are now owned by a federal property agency to which the military has to pay rent. The definite announcement of future structures is still expected within the week from May 18th to 25th.

 

The four (plus mountain, plus French-German, plus Fast Forces Command) brigade model is pure speculation by outsiders based upon the rumored number of future infantry formations (which amounts to only a very mediocre raise in light infantry of two battalions vs. the originally planned six anymore). They're positing four tank battalions of four line companies each instead of six of three.

Edited April 30, 2011 by BansheeOne

[BansheeOne]

Rumors a-go-go. Latest on army structure:

 

 

1st Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 101

 

- three mechanized brigades (11-13), each with

 

-- Jäger battalion (xx1)

 

-- two (only one in Brigade 12) Panzergrenadier battalions (xx2, xx3)

 

-- Panzer battalion (xx4 - not in Brigade 13) with four line companies

 

-- Recon battalion (xx5)

 

-- Engineer battalion (xx6)

 

-- Logistics battalion (xx7)

 

 

2nd Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 201

 

- Mountain Brigade 24 with

 

-- three mountain battalions (241-243)

 

-- Mountain Recon Battalion 245

 

-- Mountain Engineer Battalion 246

 

-- Mountain Logistics Battalion 247

 

- two mechanized brigades (25, 26), each with

 

-- two Panzergrenadier battalions (xx1 [?], xx2)

 

-- Panzer battalion (xx4) with four line companies

 

-- Recon battalion (xx5)

 

-- Engineer battalion (xx6)

 

-- Logistics battalion (xx7)

 

 

German Contingent French-German Brigade

 

-- two Jäger battalions (291, 292)

 

-- Artillery Battalion 295

 

 

Fast Forces Command

 

-- Fallschirmjäger regiment with four line companies and one HQ, weapons, logistics, medical [plus engineer and recon?] company each

 

-- Special Operations regiment with six parachute companies and one HQ, weapons, logistics and medical company each

 

-- helicopter regiments (no newer information than two NH 90, one Tiger)

Edited May 3, 2011 by BansheeOne

[WRW]

Rumors a-go-go. Latest on army structure:

 

 

1st Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 101

 

- three mechanized brigades (11-13), each with

 

-- Jäger battalion (xx1)

 

-- two (only one in Brigade 12) Panzergrenadier battalions (xx2, xx3)

 

-- Panzer battalion (xx4 - not in Brigade 13) with four line companies

 

-- Recon battalion (xx5)

 

-- Engineer battalion (xx6)

 

-- Logistics battalion (xx7)

 

 

2nd Division

 

- Artillery Battalion 201

 

- Mountain Brigade 24 with

 

-- three mountain battalions (241-243)

 

-- Mountain Recon Battalion 245

 

-- Mountain Engineer Battalion 246

 

-- Mountain Logistics Battalion 247

 

- two mechanized brigades (25, 26), each with

 

-- two Panzergrenadier battalions (xx1 [?], xx2)

 

-- Panzer battalion (xx4) with four line companies

 

-- Recon battalion (xx5)

 

-- Engineer battalion (xx6)

 

-- Logistics battalion (xx7)

 

 

German Contingent French-German Brigade

 

-- two Jäger battalions (291, 292)

 

-- Artillery Battalion 295

 

 

Fast Forces Command

 

-- Fallschirmjäger regiment with four line companies and one HQ, weapons, logistics, medical [plus engineer and recon?] company each

 

-- Special Operations regiment with six parachute companies and one HQ, weapons, logistics and medical company each

 

-- helicopter regiments (no newer information than two NH 90, one Tiger)

 

 

 

rather small

 

what happened all the artillery - garage sale

[TonyE]

Echoing WRW this is indeed quite small, especially considering that the neighbouring french army consist of nine brigades + special operations command and copious amounts of overseas battalions.

[WRW]

Echoing WRW this is indeed quite small, especially considering that the neighbouring french army consist of nine brigades + special operations command and copious amounts of overseas battalions.

 

 

Soon the irish Army will be the BIG boys in Europe

[Sardaukar]

WTF, 3 battalions of arty left?

[BansheeOne]

Navy news:

 

 

Operational parts (left side):

 

 

Deployment Flotilla 1

 

- two mine countermeasure squadrons (only one after 2020)

 

- submarine squadron (6 U 212A)

 

- corvette squadron (5 K 130 plus future K 131, now renamed Class 180 Multi-Role Combat Ship)

 

- Sea Battalion (re-amalgated navy security/boarding forces)

 

- Combat Divers

 

- bases

 

 

Deployment Flotilla 2

 

- two frigate squadrons (F 123, 124, 125?)

 

- auxiliary squadron (AOEs, future JSS?)

 

- bases

 

 

Naval Aviation

 

- aircraft wing (MPAs)

 

- helicopter wing, including UAVs (Schiebel Camcopter)

 

- all in one base