German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?

[Yama]

While I'm sure Ahmedinejad will love you, the US military as well as National Geographic amongst others disagrees.

 

Persian Gulf is out of vogue for political reasons - Official US military guidelines and all maps designate it the 'Arabian Gulf'

 

Sorry, but whatever term the US military uses is of no relevance: internationally, said body of water is still called 'Persian Gulf'.

[Archie Pellagio]

Sorry, but whatever term the US military uses is of no relevance: internationally, said body of water is still called 'Persian Gulf'.

 

While it has probably flown under the radar to most foreigners, the massive controversy of the recent trend of renaming the Persian Gulf to Arabian gulf is a massive issue in Iran and the Gulf states.

 

The Lourve began calling it the Arabian and since 2004 the National Geographic Society used both names.

All the Arab states referred to it as the Arabian gulf.

 

The whole thing became a massive nationalistic political issue in Iran, much political lobbying was undertaken, they even renamed pretty much every intercity highway 'Khalij e Fars' (Persian Gulf) and the new 50,000IR bank note had on one side a map or Iran (including body of water) an atom symbol and a very prominent english printed 'Persian Gulf'.

 

So far the lourve has relented but it is still a very controversial issue.

 

most official navigational charts will use both names and 'Arabian Gulf' is gaining far more traction.

[Anixtu]

most official navigational charts will use both names and 'Arabian Gulf' is gaining far more traction.

 

Lourve?

 

British Admiralty charts say "Persian Gulf". Royal Navy follow the US and Arab trend, since today we are at war with Eurasia and have always been at war with Eurasia, of using Arabian Gulf.

 

US military sources have an irritating habit of referring to the "Saudi Peninsula" - I wonder how the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Yemen feel about that?

[Tomas Hoting]

Lourve?

 

The Louvre museum.

[swerve]

US military sources have an irritating habit of referring to the "Saudi Peninsula" - I wonder how the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Yemen feel about that?

That shows a remarkable lack of understanding of history, geography, politics & what the name 'Saudi Arabia' actually means. Do they not know that 'Saudi' refers to a family?

[BansheeOne]

The only other definite thing seems the reduction to 53 A 400Ms.

 

The coalition parties will reportedly move to sell-on 13 of those 53 A 400Ms in the budget committee on the initiative of the Liberals, who always wanted to reduce their numbers to far less than 60.

 

There are still conflicting rumors about the type/number of army battalions. While some sources are maintaining the unified brigade approach, others say there will be three mech-heavy and infantry-heavy brigades each. The latter claim there will be nine Panzergrenadier battalions total. Some doubts seem to have arisen whether the two Jäger battalions of the French-German Brigade will count extra, or wear a double hat being part of the six deployment brigades, too. Others claim there will be two Fallschirmjäger regiments under the Fast Forces Command instead of one airborne and one air-mobile one each.

 

Whether we'll still have a sail training ship after the current "rum, sodomy and the lash" bullshit is anyone's guess ...

[m4a1]

The force structure itself doesn't look that bad. However, I would like to know of the number of supporting units - in particular, field and air defense artillery. What I already know is that all of the air defense units are transferred to the Luftwaffe, but what about their number. And, what about MRLS?

Edited January 26, 2011 by m4a1

[Ssnake]

They pulled the plug on the Gepard last year. Nike, Hawk, Roland are all gone long ago. We're down to Igla and Stinger, Patriot, and waiting for Skyshield (CRAM) and MEADS. At least that's the general picture, if I am not mistaken.

[m4a1]

Sad to hear that, I know that the predicted pattern of conflict does alter significantly and force structure changes are to be undertaken, but I am not convinced that withdrawing the entire inventory of some type of equipment is the desired solution. How old are the least old Roland 3 then? Is Igla present in BW inventory?

AFAIK C-RAM already there, though in modest numbers.

 

Thank you much for your information.

[BansheeOne]

IIRC, there are plans for eight MEADS "firing units" (six launchers each). That would translate to what, two wings in Luftwaffe parlance? MANTIS C-RAM has two units of six guns authorized and another two planned. Then there are the current three Ozelot batteries. Call it three anti-air wings total, same as now.

 

Last report on artillery is still one mixed PzH 2000/MLRS battalion in each of the two future divisions plus one for French-German brigade, actual composition not clear.

 

Navy news: Reports state the CNO is planning for a total of about 60 as opposed to 80 ships now. Floating units to be concentrated in Wilhemshaven for the North Sea and Kiel for a "Deployment Flotilla Baltic" (including the submarines now based in Eckernförde). New amalgamated navy HQ to be quarted in Rostock.

[swerve]

They pulled the plug on the Gepard last year. Nike, Hawk, Roland are all gone long ago. We're down to Igla and Stinger, Patriot, and waiting for Skyshield (CRAM) and MEADS. At least that's the general picture, if I am not mistaken.

No IRIS-T SL?

[BansheeOne]

IRIS-T SL is still projected as a secondary missile for the German MEADS system, though the cost/benefit aspect is controversial.

 

And I checked, a current Luftwaffe air defense missile wing has two groups of four firing squadrons each. So MEADS could equip one wing, and the future SysFla (MANTIS and Ozelot follow-on with LFK NG) another.

[Simon Tan]

It'll be fine as long as they keep the Landwehr, Wehrkreis and Ersatzheer.

[RETAC21]

IRIS-T SL is still projected as a secondary missile for the German MEADS system, though the cost/benefit aspect is controversial.

 

And I checked, a current Luftwaffe air defense missile wing has two groups of four firing squadrons each. So MEADS could equip one wing, and the future SysFla (MANTIS and Ozelot follow-on with LFK NG) another.

 

Plus, of course, the ubiqutous, underapreciated and highly affordable... rock:

 

[Panzermann]

It'll be fine as long as they keep the Landwehr, Wehrkreis and Ersatzheer.

All gone the dodo's way now.

[Simon Tan]

The foundations of Modern Germany, discarded. It's only a matter of time before the Russians, French and Austrians carve up the Reich.

[BansheeOne]

The plan for the MoD came in last week. Overall reduction from 3,100 to 1,800 posts, however they will keep two state secretaries and the dual Bonn-Berlin seat. Inspectors of the Forces to become Commanders of the Forces, be subordinated to the Inspector General and move out to (allegedly) Koblenz (Heer), Cologne (Luftwaffe) and Rostock (Marine) with their respective consolidated commands.

 

 

Medical will remain as a distinct branch. Force Base will have various centralized commands like Military Basic Organization and Military Police (no more MP battalions, just companies). The Defense Area Commands will be abolished.

 

Semi-substantiated rumors about future Luftwaffe structure:

 

- two fighter wings with Eurofighter

 

- one attack wing with Eurofighter

 

- one attack wing with Tornado with nuclear participation mission

 

- one reconaissance wing with Tornado (Recce + ECR?), Heron and Eurohawk

 

- one airlift wing with A 400M

 

- one transport wing with CH-53

 

- one air defense wing with two Patriot (follow-on) groups and one MANTIS group. Future subordination of Ozelot still unclear.

 

Preliminary ideas for making service more attractive and widening the recruiting base of the future all-volunteer force leaked this week. Include increased attention to the less-qualified and allowing service for resident aliens (supposedly with EU citizenship as already possible for most police agencies). MoD said they're merely brainstorming at this point.

 

Meanwhile, and while some guy in an ANA uniform killed two Bundeswehr soldiers and wounded seven on an OP north of Baghlan today, Germany is debating whether the defense minister neglected to reference his PhD thesis properly.

[Ssnake]

Meanwhile ... Germany is debating whether the defense minister neglected to reference his PhD thesis properly.

No. Germany was debating whether a guy who explicitly and repeatedly distanced himself from the crookedness of the usual politicians was still creditable to serve as the defense minister after using copy and paste throughout approximately 70% of his 475 page thesis.

 

Well, it doesn't matter. The bigot just resigned, and not a day too early.

[Tomas Hoting]

German Defence Minister Guttenberg resigns over thesis

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12608083

 

For those not capable of reading German.

[BansheeOne]

No. Germany was debating whether a guy who explicitly and repeatedly distanced himself from the crookedness of the usual politicians was still creditable to serve as the defense minister after using copy and paste throughout approximately 70% of his 475 page thesis.

 

Taken a look at the individual entries on the Guttenplag wiki? At least half of them amount to "somebody else has used the same words occurring in this sentence in a different sentence before". And the 70 percent number refers to the count of pages on which plagiarisms (real or made-up) have been found, not the total of the thesis. Standard political attack spin.

 

That's not to excuse Guttenberg from the real plagiarisms, which really look quite intentional at this point; and I agree that his resignation was necessary, and rather too late. That's not what I was getting at though, but rather the fact that the coverage totally eclipsed the very manifest challenge of the impeding reforms, and the death of the three soldiers at Baghlan.

 

I would have been content if the affair had been reported one line down or one spot behind the other items with no bigger space used, but very few media outlets I saw managed that. And since I have a very good insight into the very meagre substance of the other "scandals" that have been blown out of all proportion and thrown at him recently out of sheer desparation over his popularity, I can muster very little support for his accusers (not to talk of the hysterical giggle about the self-styled righteousness of some who have very thin legs to stand on themselves).

 

In a matter-of-fact way, even though you can criticize Guttenberg's personal conduct (and I have done that myself from his flip-flopping on the Kunduz affair on) and the reform has yet to yield any tangible positive result, from inside defense politics he was the best thing that has and could have happened to the Bundeswehr since re-unification; and I find it most unfortunate he has turned out to be untenable.

 

In retrospect, he reminds me somewhat of Discworld's Moist von Lipwig - a fraud and impostor, but put into the right place overcomes decades of institutional inertia and gets things moving in the right direction in a hurry. Too bad we don't live in a fantasy novel, and I'm rather glum about what will come after him. He allegedly has spoken for Frank-Jürgen Weise who headed the blue-ribbon committee on the Bundeswehr reform as his successor, and that would probably be the best outcome. I can't see anybody else who would be both remotely fit for the task and stupid enough to take that job.

[Simon Tan]

Cut and paste that achieves the mission simply shows that he is fluent in modern technology and economical in effort. Both exceedingly important in the 21st century. Only an idiot reinvents the wheel. Only a moron believes a politician is not crooked. Their crookedness is to be tolerated if they can perform.

 

Simon

[BansheeOne]

Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière will reportedly follow zu Guttenberg as defense minister. I had previously put him in the "fit for the task, but not stupid enough" column. Good choice under the circumstances, he's a quiet but capable and determined worker who has dealed with external security in anti-terrorism and the police missions to Afghanistan and elsewhere before, as well as in his previous post as Minister of the Chancellor's Office.

 

ETA: Almost forgot - his father was Gen. Ulrich de Maizière, on the OKH in WW II and later Inspector General of the Bundeswehr, generally considered the father of the "Internal Leadership" concept anchoring the armed forces in democratic society.

Edited March 2, 2011 by BansheeOne

[Ssnake]

Cut and paste that achieves the mission simply shows that he is fluent in modern technology and economical in effort.

But it fails in the core requirement for a doctoral thesis, to come up with an original idea and its scientific evaluation. It's bloody hard to do that, and rightfully earns you respect and usually a significantly better income. It is fraudulent behavior, plain and simple. He might have gotten away with it if he hadn't expressed an attitude of being better than every other politician. If he had not actively participated in the game to elevate his image above and beyond that of mere mortals.

 

Cynics might say mundus vult decipi ergo decipiatur, but even they will concede that he at least violated the 11th commandment: Thou shalt not let yourself get caught..

 

Personally I don't agree with either statement. But no matter how you look at it, a resignation was due.

[Dave Clark]

But it fails in the core requirement for a doctoral thesis, to come up with an original idea and its scientific evaluation.

 

This begs the question of what the University of Bayreuth was up to granting the doctorate in the first place. Surely he had to go through a mündliche Prüfung which should have caught him out.

 

I'm actually sorry to see him go but, hey, it's the age-old balance between hubris and nemesis

[BansheeOne]

First thing the new minister did was firing State Secretary Walther Otremba who was brought in by zu Guttenberg to oversee the reform. That will endear de Maizière to a lot of folks at the MoD, Otremba was fairly well hated for the "cynical brutality" (according to a LTC I talked to shortly before the fall of zu Guttenberg) with which he pushed forward with the plans, taking an economic rather than a military view.

 

De Maizière has stated he will only go ahead with the reform after having assessed the plans himself. Of course some people now see the opportunity to turn the wheel back all the way including keeping conscription, but that's almost surely not gonna happen with the relevant legislation already introduced in parliament. The Bavarian conservatives, earlier the biggest defenders of conscription, have announced to fight any change of plans tooth and nail IOT preserve zu Guttenberg's heritage.

 

Meanwhile, the Social Democrats ironically have demanded to exempt the Bundeswehr from all budget cuts which got the process rolling in the first place. Zu Guttenberg, after using the need to save as a launching point for the reform after charging ahead with a pledge to cut 8.4 billion, lately very cleverly called for increased start-off budgeting after parliament demanded a bigger force strength than the initial austere plan he presented. The latest development had been Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble relenting on his fierce saving position a little, stretching the total sum of cuts over five rather than four years. Now de Maizière is very close to the chancellor, so hopefully he can wring out some more money.

 

Of course, quite unsurprisingly the first numbers of volunteers after suspension of the draft appear insufficient for the projected strength. There's internal talk that in the end the Bundeswehr may turn out to be closer to 170,000 than 185,000, which would save money again ...