German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?

[kokovi]

6 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I originally dismissed this as sarcasm. It wouldn't work - partly because the tools are no longer there, but primarily because the Marder is based on a workplace safety certificate based on 1960s standards. New vehicles, whichever way they're built, need to meet today's workplace standards. Arguably this is part of what's currently killing the Puma, or at least making it both extremely costly and possibly overly complicated. Our workplace safety regulations are becoming crippling.

At least when I looked into the Bundeswehr regulation on occupational health and safety the last time, it stated that it was perfectly fine to deviate from those rules for tactical reasons. You just need to make a decision and take the responsibility.

[seahawk]

43 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

It was only mostly sarcastic. I wasn't aware of the specific obstacles, but clear that the advantage of getting any new-built Marders in service would have been at best negligible compared to buying Lynx or CV90, even without goldplating them to national specifications. I fear there's no way around trying to make Puma work at least moderately well. HS 30 soldiered on until finally replaced by Marder, too.

You know better - I think. Anything bought new will be held to the same standards and the political leadership still does not have the will to make necessary decisions. It is not as if the industry came up with the requirements for the Puma. You could have had KMV and Rheinmetall each build a prototype and then have the shoot out on the winner. But instead it was decided that both should have a share and then the overall order shrinked and shrinked. 

A lot of the requirements (pregnant persons) could have been scrapped as well, but were not. If you a serious about getting the equipment to work, you can do this with the Puma as well. (a digitized Marder would not be easier)

[BansheeOne]

Nah, I was thinking of plain analogue Marders built to the latest protection standard, with maybe a new engine and transmission, sensors and gun (Oerlikon offered its GDD-A 35 mm turret as far back as the 80s). No integrated 360-degree awareness turret stabilization engine rear ramp running gear control system. It would have been hardly beyond Cold War levels technology, but then so is 90 percent of the threat.

But again, I'm completely clear that in all likelihood it wouldn't be any faster than testing, ordering, building and training on Lynx or CV90 right now for better combat value.

[DB]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:58 AM, Ssnake said:

I originally dismissed this as sarcasm. It wouldn't work - partly because the tools are no longer there, but primarily because the Marder is based on a workplace safety certificate based on 1960s standards. New vehicles, whichever way they're built, need to meet today's workplace standards. Arguably this is part of what's currently killing the Puma, or at least making it both extremely costly and possibly overly complicated. Our workplace safety regulations are becoming crippling.

<Cough> Ajax and noise and vibration standards. </Cough>

[kokovi]

On 12/21/2022 at 10:40 AM, seahawk said:

You know better - I think. Anything bought new will be held to the same standards and the political leadership still does not have the will to make necessary decisions. It is not as if the industry came up with the requirements for the Puma. You could have had KMV and Rheinmetall each build a prototype and then have the shoot out on the winner. But instead it was decided that both should have a share and then the overall order shrinked and shrinked. 

A lot of the requirements (pregnant persons) could have been scrapped as well, but were not. If you a serious about getting the equipment to work, you can do this with the Puma as well. (a digitized Marder would not be easier)

It was also really stupid to make it air-transportable in an A400M. If they had really wanted to transport heavy armoured vehicles by air, they should have bought a dozen or so C-17s. Would not have solved the logistics problems with that idea but would have been a start. Otherwise, the Puma could have been a bit heavier and probably could have had a manned turret. I believe that would have made things easier.

[BansheeOne]

Multiple German media report that defense minister Christine Lambrecht, long criticized for lack of drive in rebuilding the Bundeswehr (admittedly a tall order after over two decades of neglect) and embarrassing personal appearances, will resign next week. Who will succeed her is anyone's guess, and will show if the field is finally taken serious; a lot of people would like SPD chief Lars Klingbeil, who has a pro-military track record from before it was fashionable or even advisable in the party, and bring some real political weight from his current position. Then again there are important considerations like equal representation of genders in cabinet etc. ...

[Markus Becker]

12 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

a lot of people would like SPD chief Lars Klingbeil, who has a pro-military track record from before it was fashionable or even advisable in the party, and bring some real political weight from his current position. Then again there are important considerations like equal representation of genders in cabinet etc. ...

Fortunately there is a very easy solution for that, given that gender isn't a biological reality any more but a mere social construct that one can change by just saying so. 😅

[BansheeOne]

😁

In a pinch, current parliamentary defense state secretary Siemtje Möller might do. She's young with only one-and-a-half Bundestag terms under her belt, but has been working in defense from the start with a solid pro-military reputation, and would need no spin-up for the main job; in fact she was mentioned as a candidate before they dragged Lambrecht back from the brink of retirement. However, she's not in the same political weight class as Klingbeil.

There are other quota considerations than gender of course, particularly representation of state party chapters. Lambrecht is from Hesse, as is interior minister Nancy Faeser who might go back there this year to run for state premier; so you would lose two from the state, with their chapter demanding compensation. Both Klingbeil and Möller are Lower Saxonians. Then we get to balancing the left and right wings in the party; Lambrecht is a member of the SPD's Parliamentary Left, Klingbeil and Möller of the conservative Seeheim Circle. Faeser is not an MP, so unsure where she fits.

After those requirements are satisfied, we may talk about expertise. Maybe.

[seahawk]

Möller and Klingbeil would be a good choice.

[Ssnake]

Högl?

[seahawk]

If you remember how she pushed out Bartels..

[BansheeOne]

She has been mentioned like, as Thomas Wiegold notes, any other Social Democrat who can be connected to the Bundeswehr. 😁 But yeah, how she was installed by Rolf Mützenich over her universally acknowledged predecessor leaves a a bad taste. As my former district representative, she never demonstrated any particular competence in anything, either. And going from parliamentary defense commissioner to minister would be damn unusual, too; that's a position to finish your political career in.

[BansheeOne]

Well Lambrecht resigned today as expected. While no successor has been named yet, Chancellor Scholz has said he has a clear idea about it, and it will be known very quick. Other than SPD head Lars Klingbeil, defense state secretary Siemtje Möller and parliamentary defense commissioner Eva Högl already mentioned, labor minister Hubertus Heil and Scholz' chief of staff Wolfgang Schmidt have also been suggested. We'll see.

[Angrybk]

Can somebody explain the furor over Lambrecht's New Year's Eve message? I only watched a little of it and it seemed cheesy, but not offensive or anything (also I don't speak German )

Edited January 16, 2023 by Angrybk

[BansheeOne]

In all honesty, while talking about what great people you met during the Ukraine war against a background of fireworks in an amateurish Instagram video was rather cringeworthy, the sharks probably bit so hard because there was already ample blood in the water. For those who actually cared about defense pre-Ukraine already, Lambrecht personified everything wrong with attitude towards it in German politics from the start - a has-been with no subject matter expertise shanghaied from almost-retirement because various quotas had to be met in cabinet makeup and she was too slow to run away from a post that could not be ignored just entirely.

Unfortunately for her, come February 24 everyone and their uncle were suddenly interested in the field, and she didn't hold up well to it. Again, anyone would have struggled to turn the ship around after the last 25 years, but she gave the impression of either not trying hard enough or worse, failing, and never being sure about what she was doing. Add a string of awkward personal appearances, trying to sell delivery of helmets to Ukraine as a sign of solidarity when everyone was pissed Germany wouldn't even allow others to pass on German-sourced weapons, taking her son along on an official helicopter ride as a jump-off to vacation and taking pictures of it, etc.

In short, she had become the government's weak link which parliamentary opposition and hostile media loved to attack in hope of scoring a major blow against Olaf Scholz. Which they have achieved now; though it's not like there isn't actually vast room for improvement over her.

[seahawk]

She talked about the war in the Ukraine as if it was some kind of motivational training event. 

"Mitten in Europa tobt ein Krieg. Und damit verbunden waren für mich ganz viele besondere Eindrücke, die ich gewinnen konnte, viele, viele Begegnungen mit interessanten und mit tollen Menschen. Dafür sage ich ein herzliches Dankeschön."

And to be honest the way she entered her new job was already a low. She made short work of all employees closely working with the old defence minister and quickly installed her own people. That was so heavy handed that the old minister stayed away from he inauguration.

At the moment I think chancellor Scholz has not taken any serious damage, but that will change if the new minister proves to be another dud. (which is likely as qualification seems to be on page 3 or 4 of the requirements)

[Ssnake]

7 hours ago, seahawk said:

Mitten in Europa tobt ein Krieg. Und damit verbunden waren für mich ganz viele besondere Eindrücke, die ich gewinnen konnte, viele, viele Begegnungen mit interessanten und mit tollen Menschen. Dafür sage ich ein herzliches Dankeschön.

In the heart of Europe is a ravaging war. This gave me an opportunity to gain special impressions and to meet many and great people. For that, I want to express my gratitude.

 

[BansheeOne]

And that's a streamlined translation to good English. 😁

Successor reportedly to be announced today. Labor minister Heil has all but stated it won't be him. There is an outside chance at an outside surprise as LTG Carsten Breuer, former head of the national COVID crisis staff and now of the Bundeswehr's Territorial Command has been suggested. I don't think anybody really wants to go there, though. Sure, other Western democracies have had former generals as defense ministers, notably the US; but of all the political principles that should be rightfully ditched in the selection at this time, maintaining the appearance of the primacy of politics is the last.

[seahawk]

Boris Pistorius???

Seems like having a working defence ministry and Bundeswehr is still less important than party politics.

[Ssnake]

2 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Seems like having a working defence ministry and Bundeswehr is still less important than party politics.

Now you got it.

[seahawk]

The interview in the ARD was quite bizarre.

"What does qualify him for the job? "

"He has a bullish leadership style and he did do his conscription, which is quite rare for a politician in the SPD."

Well if that is all it takes.

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

He also looks disturbingly similar to Franz Josef Jung.

[Markus Becker]

2 hours ago, seahawk said:

Boris Pistorius???

Seems like having a working defence ministry and Bundeswehr is still less important than party politics.

Come on. He learned a job and actually worked in the civil service. They could have done much worse. 

[BansheeOne]

Yeah, it could have been worse. Not my first or second choice, but at least an experienced (albeit state) minister who has dealt with (albeit domestic) security and has some (albeit fleeting, as an 80s conscript) acquaintance with the Bundeswehr. By his whole record he's not afraid of a good fight to get things done, and as some note, at 62 he doesn't need to mind a career beyond. He'll need to deliver pretty much instantly though.

[Markus Becker]

Yes, he knows how the Gubbermit bureaucracy works and he hopefully has enough sense of self preservation to put in a good effort. If he's smart enough to get and listen to a military expert, he could do well. Certainly publicly but after UvdL, AKK and Lamprecht that should be the easy part. 

Btw, the Black-ish party criticizing the choice of Boris for a lack of experience is comedy gold. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Markus Becker