rohala Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 €760 million for upgrading 104 existing tanks? Isn't it a bit much? For 7 million per piece you can almost buy new tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Is it coincidence that the newest Leopard model has a sub-model designation that echos Germany's first tank, or is it a deliberate homage? I suppose it was intentional. Normal designations would have been "Leopard 2A8" or something with "KWS" at the end (Leopard 2A4KWS or Leopard 2A5KWS - depends on which version gets refurbished and upgraded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Falcon Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 €760 million for upgrading 104 existing tanks? Isn't it a bit much? For 7 million per piece you can almost buy new tanks. It's not just new gun tanks that are being purchased, but Leopard 2 derivatives such as ARVs and AVLBs that are being procured as well. From the article: Also part of the €760 million (U.S. $832.7 million) contract with KMW is the delivery of 32 tank chassis frames that can later be turned into additional vehicles of the Leopard 2 series, such as variants capable of launching bridges across rivers and other chokepoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Falcon Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Also thank you to Panzermann and Last Dingo for their insight the new Leopard 2 variant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARGEAN Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? A development of a new MBT seems to be launched, to add some more upgraded Leopard 2 is an interim move for about two battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARGEAN Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars?A development of a new MBT seems to be launched, to add some more upgraded Leopard 2 is an interim move for about two battalions.Still, spending almost a billion at such upgrade without even real upgunning... Dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Falcon Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? I'd argue that against Russia's demonstrated EW capability, the utility of radars mounted on tanks is questionable. Radars can act as beacons if detected, or can be jammed into uselessness. What can such systems do in a high-end tank battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? Where is the 152mm antitank gun we were promised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? I'd argue that against Russia's demonstrated EW capability, the utility of radars mounted on tanks is questionable. Radars can act as beacons if detected, or can be jammed into uselessness. What can such systems do in a high-end tank battle? They can look through multispectral smoke, mostly. Secondary (passive) utility as mmW radar warning receiver. They do not need to radiate all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Falcon Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why so boring? Where's 130mm gun, APS and mmw radars? I'd argue that against Russia's demonstrated EW capability, the utility of radars mounted on tanks is questionable. Radars can act as beacons if detected, or can be jammed into uselessness. What can such systems do in a high-end tank battle? They can look through multispectral smoke, mostly. Secondary (passive) utility as mmW radar warning receiver.They do not need to radiate all the time. Understood and again, thank you. Question, though: Would such radars be vulnerable to chaff, such as that in grenades launched from the launchers on AFVs that otherwise fire smoke grenades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 If we're going to ensure tanks don't get MMW radar on the basis that it might give away the tank's position under certain circumstances, why not also remove radios from existing tanks and revert to commanders waving flags - preferably camouflaged flags or better still, transparent ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingCanOpener Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Think of the aircraft with those huge beacons that signal their location from hundreds of kilometers as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 MMW radars are extremely hard to detect and pinpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Still strong enough to fire a SMART 155mm round into the area and have it home on the emitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 mm wavelength radio waves face a high absorption in the atmosphere. Signals become very weak after a couple kilometres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Falcon Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Thank you all for the insight on this point. There's a lot about this tech I didn't really understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Still strong enough to fire a SMART 155mm round into the area and have it home on the emitter. So you set up some dummy emitters some distance from the tanks and or use the MMW intermittently from multiple BPs. To be fair there is nothing stopping the enemy firing a SMART at the coordinates your radio transmissions emanate from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Safe for fat-moving detectors (such as Wild Weasel aircraft) there's afaik a need for triangulation by multiple parties in order to determine the location (instead of merely the direction). This is rarely going to work against mmW radars because the huge signal attenuation by the atmosphere makes those emissions undetectable at longer ranges. There are rarely going to be enough locators in range for a proper triangulation, and even then any moving mmW radar would have changed position before arty strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 three Bundeswehr MTH on holiday at Lake Balaton in Hungary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 US ARmy at Bergen-Hohne in brigade excercise Haffschild of Panzergrenadierbrigade 41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12t7g-OgC80 https://www.army.mil/article/187945 Allied Forces train on NATO soil during Panzer ThrustBy Sgt. Justin GeigerMay 17, 2017 LUNEBURG HEATH, Germany -- Military training can be executed to sustain combat readiness, promote esprit de corps, refine standard operating procedures or even to validate a training area for NATO forces to potentially conduct future exercises.Occupying a range that was established in the early 1930's is a tank platoon with the 1st Battalion, 68th Armor Regiment, 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, conducting bilateral mechanized training and gunnery during exercise Panzer Thrust with the 401st Mechanized Infantry Battalion, during the German Exercise Haffschild, at training area Bergen-Hohne, May 15-17, 2017.Bergen-Hohne training area is located in the southern part of Lüneburg Heath, in the state of Lower Saxony in northern Germany. This military training facility, used by German forces and other NATO nations, covers an area of 284 square kilometers (70,170 acres)."Military training area Bergen is the largest training area in Germany for mechanized weapon systems, and it is in the NATO foot print," said German Lt. Col. Jan Tilmann, Commander, 401th Mechanized Infantry Bn. "There is a strong relationship between NATO nations and this training area. The organization that is running this training area has a lot of experience with NATO forces, so it is not unusual that international NATO soldiers are here.""This training area has the capabilities to conduct live-fire exercises up to the battalion level," he said while highlighting the importance of validating the training area.Maintaining combat readiness is a top priority for the 3rd ABCT. Training alongside NATO Allies and partners, as part of Operation Atlantic Resolve, provides unique opportunities to sharpen skills and sustain the ability to shoot, move and communicate as a combined arms team."What is important in my mind are the offensive capabilities and the defensive capabilities, to actually conduct live-fires," said Capt. Kyle D. Pernelli, Commander, Bravo Company, 1st Bn., 68th Armor Regt., 3ABCT. "With that being said, this training facility definitely has those capabilities, and it enables us to conduct maneuvers like this. Prior to the Combined Arms Live-Fire Exercise we executed a platoon live-fire event where we were able to certify this platoon, day and night, for this combined training."Pernelli and his tank platoon rotated from the Baltics to participate in the German led CALFEX. At the end of exercise Panzer Thrust, the tank platoon will conduct onward movement to Grafenwoehr Training Area to consolidate with the rest of Bravo Company and prepare for the multi-national exercises scheduled for this summer.Continuously rotating Soldiers through the European theater showcases deterrence by demonstrating an ability to rapidly deploy capabilities to conduct combined training as need."During training here, whether it is dry runs, live-fires or major exercises, we can test and check our standard operating procedures," said Tilmann. "Here the combined idea is on the ground, so it is almost perfect to incorporate U.S. forces, due to the fact, that this training facility has hosted international Allies and partners from a lot of nations. In my opinion, to continue to improve NATO capabilities, it is significant to conduct combined exercises here on NATO soil."Tilmann also expressed his excitement about having the chance to train with an allied force and the benefits that come with that opportunity."Having the opportunity to host U.S. Soldiers has been a great experience," he said. "We mixed up the platoons, which allowed the American armored soldiers and our German mechanized infantry soldiers to work very closely together. Therefore, they couldn't just use American tactics or German tactics, and they learned a lot from each other." about the brigade ex: http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/poc/heer?uri=ci:bw.heer.aktuell.nachrichten.jahr2017.mai2017&de.conet.contentintegrator.portlet.current.id=01DB050000000001|AMADCL544DIBR(in german) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Just heard through the Flurfunk ("corridor radio") that there are 18 (eighteen) full combat ready and deployable pilots for the Tiger attack helicopter at the moment. 123 positions of which only 62 are filled and 18 fully ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARGEAN Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Just heard through the Flurfunk ("corridor radio") that there are 18 (eighteen) full combat ready and deployable pilots for the Tiger attack helicopter at the moment. 123 positions of which only 62 are filled and 18 fully ready.That is just fucking insane... It was less that quarter of century ago, without wars or anything harsh, when they was one of the strongest armies of Europe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastdingo Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 I consider that helicopter as largely useless for deterrence and defence, so I would be fine with zero pilots for it. That would save operating expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 So your posts are like helicopters - both largely useless? On topic: Seems like a lot of the Bohikans retired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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