German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?

[BansheeOne]

You do know the term Beutegermanen though, right?

 

Four-year budget framework officially presented today, and the total rise for defense is about ten billion. Which was promptly criticized as too little by the defense policy spokesman of the SPD. Well, the Bundestag has the final say in budget deliberations, so if coalition MPs want more, it's in their hands.

 

Lines below read, from top, global expense reduction (mandated cross-budget savings), international deployments, reimbursements of administrative cost to the states, increased requirements in military procurement (including research, development and trials) considering a task-oriented structure-appropriate equipment and other increased requirements (including personnel/care), procurement of a national observation platform "Open Skies", procurement of an aircraft for Bundeswehr passenger transport, exchange rate-related requirement reduction, and reimbursement to public health insurers according to the soldier care law. Sums in 1,000 Euro, so add three zeros.

 

[Gregory]

You do know the term Beutegermanen though, right?

 

Four-year budget framework officially presented today, and the total rise for defense is about ten billion. Which was promptly criticized as too little by the defense policy spokesman of the SPD. Well, the Bundestag has the final say in budget deliberations, so if coalition MPs want more, it's in their hands.

 

Lines below read, from top, global expense reduction (mandated cross-budget savings), international deployments, reimbursements of administrative cost to the states, increased requirements in military procurement (including research, development and trials) considering a task-oriented structure-appropriate equipment and other increased requirements (including personnel/care), procurement of a national observation platform "Open Skies", procurement of an aircraft for Bundeswehr passenger transport, exchange rate-related requirement reduction, and reimbursement to public health insurers according to the soldier care law. Sums in 1,000 Euro, so add three zeros.

 

 

 

I have a healthy amount of scepticism that the higher figures scheduled for 2019 and 2020 will be actually achieved. It's always easy to push off the large impacts towards the tail end of the projected period.

 

By the way, as a yardstick, here are American figures on how much it costs to stand up an army brigade:

Brigade Combat Team Personnel and Equipment Cost

 

Armored Brigade Combat Team

Personnel Cost: $250 million

Equipment Cost: $1,962 million

 

Stryker Brigade Combat Team

Personnel Cost: $269 million

Equipment Cost: $1,323 million

 

Infantry Brigade Combat Team

Personnel Cost: $228 million

Equipment Cost: $460 million

[a77]

 

Armored Brigade Combat Team

Equipment Cost: $1,962 million

 

Stryker Brigade Combat Team

Equipment Cost: $1,323 million

 

How can the equipment cost of a Stryker Brigade be so "close" to a Armored Brigade? or a Stryker Brigade have newly manufactured vehicle and a Armored Brigade get refurbished vehicle from the storehouse.

[Panzermann]

Stryker Brigades have lots of networked warfare electronics driving up the costs.

[Gregory]

Strykers cost ~ $4.9 million each, Abrams ~$8.5 million. Difference in price is not that big.

[Panzermann]

Numbers from 2016/2/29

 

In sum total 178.171 soldiers and soldierettes

 

Bundesministerium der Verteidigung (MoD): 953

Streitkräftebasis (Forces Base): 41.882

Zentraler Sanitätsdienst (Central Medical Service): 19.738

Heer (Army): 59.804

Luftwaffe (Air Force): 28.431

Marine (Navy): 16.200

Bereich Infrastruktur, Umweltschutz, Dienstleistungen (Organisational Sector Infrastructure, Environmental Protection, Services): 948

Bereich Ausrüstung, Informationstechnik, Nutzung (Organisational Sector Equipment, IT, Utilisation) : 1.775

Bereich Personal (Org Sector Personnel): 6.938, of whom are 4.188 students at Bundeswehr Universities

various: 1.502

 

167.670 career and contract soldiers, 10.501 voluntary military service

 

19.467 women

 

http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/!ut/p/c4/FYxBDsMgDAR_hKUec8sr2uZmwgZZEBM5Lnw_VHMczdBGE-UumV2acqUPfXdZ4ghxJITbDeLFGIcjZPtpqpyhUzCsgN7_QRyvKlpm2bTDHImu81wf_104RA!!/

 

 

That is the lowest number of professional sokdiers since the founding of the Bundeswehr. I wonder where the rise is to be raised from that von der Legend promised?

[TonyE]

41000 in force base and almost 20000 in central medical service?

[Panzermann]

41000 in force base and almost 20000 in central medical service?

Most support functions have been unified in forces base and medical service respectively.

 

MAD, the sports school, music, soldiers commandeered to NATO staffs and such

parts of Signals, Logistics, military police, NBC troops, electronic warfare, engineers, geography troops are part of force base (I think I missed some troops)

They wear their original unit's uniforms, so in effect a mix of all three types is found in units.

 

Same for the medical service, they are organisationally combined and then parcelled out to the line troops. So it can happen that you find a doctor in naval uniform in a tank unit for example.

[rohala]

Still, aren't 20,000 medical personnel too many in proportion to the total size of the force?

[BP]

Still, aren't 20,000 medical personnel too many in proportion to the total size of the force?

 

Not if you are planning to get your ass whipped.

Edited March 26, 2016 by BP

[BansheeOne]

The currently 14 Tornados based at Holloman AFB, NM, will be relocated to Jagel, Schleswig-Holstein by the end of 2019 and the Luftwaffe training center at Holloman disbanded. The Luftwaffe states that the introduction of guided bombs has allowed to train "synthetically" and independently from air-to-ground ranges, and requirements have reduced overall with the downsizing of the Tornado fleet. Also, operating aircraft and basing personnel in the US causes disproportionally higher cost than training in Germany.

[Panzermann]

It has become inefficient by now with the reduced fleet. It is actually quite a lot of personnel stationed at Holloman.

 

It is the Luftwaffe's own fault to have neglected the Bombodrom, that there is not much of a domestic bombing training ground.

[chino]

 

Still, aren't 20,000 medical personnel too many in proportion to the total size of the force?

 

Not if you are planning to get your ass whipped.

 

 

ROTFLMFAO

 

It could be that the medical personnel are career soldiers on long contracts. While on top of that 150,000 figure you have the reservists, people whom have served their 2 yr conscription but could be called up in war time to swell the ranks to twice that number.

 

Singapore, Israel, Taiwan, Switzerland and many other countries follow this model. It is too unnecessarily expensive to maintain a large standing armed forces in peacetime.

 

So if in wartime your numbers swells to 300,000, then 20,000 medical personnel would sound about right?

[BansheeOne]

There are several reasons I can think of for the high numbers in medical service. First, the Bundeswehr runs five hospitals which are also integrated into the civilian rescue and healthcare system on the reasoning that this allows personnel to stay current in fields not generally associated with the typically young and fit military population, plus actually makes some money. Second, medical personnel deploys disproportionately, both because it is a politically less controversial way to participate in multi-national military actions, and because German demands in medical care standards are very high; so we're recluctant to deploy soldiers where they might get care of lower standards by partner nations, and partners like our care.

 

Third, in lieu of helicopter medevac capabilities, the Bundeswehr tends to throw personnel at the problem of quick medical treatment; in Afghanistan, any patrol was typically accompanied by a mobile team, sometimes including a surgeon, sorta like a German civilian emergency rescue team - if you can't get WIAs to a doctor quickly, get the doctor to the WIAs. Fourth, the medical service is 40 percent-plus female with the attendant effects in maternity leave etc., while the average throughout the forces is 10.5.

 

In the recent past, the medical service has actually had some personnel problems. High deployment rates and generally more stressful conditions for much less money compared to the civilian sector which was seeking personnel made many leave for the latter, including contract surgeons using a loophole that public employers have to permit public servants to leave for a better-paid public service post if they find one; in many cases hospitals of public universities specifically created posts for doctors to satisfy this requirement, and thus gained staffers trained on the Bundeswehr's dime (usually you would have to repay your training if you left before your contract was up; once you're a lifer, you can quit at any time though). The drain then of course created a higher workload for the rest, which worsened attractivity, etc.

 

The loophole has since been plugged, various bonuses were introduced and recruitment of prior-trained personnel increased, and the service seems to be recovering - though in an adverse development, a court found a couple years ago that medical personnel also has a right to conscentious objection due to changed circumstances in deployments like Afghanistan, where they may have to act pretty much as combattants because the enemy doesn't respect their protected status. Quitting that way still means repaying your training however.

[BansheeOne]

Reports that there is to be an increase by 7,000 (plus 3,000 civilian) posts in a first step, increasing to 15,000 in a second. It's all very vague as of now, with no mention of target dates, how the additional troops are to be recruited, which fields are to be strengthened, and whether this is to be an increase over the current actual or authorized numbers; the reports talk of more budgeted posts, which indicates the latter. That would actually mean a target strength of 200,000, which is rather ambitious in light of current recruitment and demographics. Maybe they are finally going to open service to EU citizens, or else are expecting a surge in patriotism ... I suppose the plans will be officially presented next week, which is the last parliamentary session week before the Easter break.

 

After some delay, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen presented the plans today. For reference: the Bundeswehr currently has an establishment strength of 185,000; however, actual strength is ca. 177,000, including 167,000 contract and career soldiers (already planned to be raised to 170,000 by the end of this year) and 10,000 short-time volunteers (though this number fluctuates quite a bit). For the latter, only 5,000 fixed positions actually exist, the balance being chucked wherever for menial tasks, which often leads to frustration both for them and the units. There are also 56,000 civilian staffers.

 

After evaluation of likely missions in view of the changed security situation, it was determined that the Bundeswehr will need an additional 14,300 military and 4,400 civilian positions until 2023. However, just like in the revised equipment planning, fixed upper limits are to be done away with; rather, an annual personnel board is to determine requirements for the next five years respectively, with establishment positions budgeted yearly (a "breathing personnel body").

 

After a reality check against demographics etc., it was thought that the civilian positions can be filled with no problems, including by rehiring former military personnel, however only about 7,000 additional soldiers can be recruited. Another 5,000 positions are to be re-arranged internally for an effective total of 12,000, leaving a delta of ca. 2,300. Three quarters of the increase are to benefit the troops, the rest commands, schools, etc. Among the measures planned from next year to achieve this are:

 

- increasing fixed positions for short-time volunteers from 5,000 to 8,500;

 

- increasing positions for activated reservists from 2,500 to 3,000;

 

- moving civilian qualification training at the end of contracts, usually done in the last two years of the term, after active service (this is already being implemented);

 

- waiving retirement ages in grade for those willing and fit to continue serving;

 

- re-using positions which were to be deleted.

 

It looks like this will be mostly used to fill up the existing structures, though some minor additions have been mentioned beyond the recently-announced formation of a dedicated Cyber and Information Command with its own three-star inspector, equivalent to the Heer, Luftwaffe, Marine, Force Base and Medical Service:

 

- an additional bridging engineer company for the Heer;

 

- an additional boarding company for the Marine's Seebataillon;

 

- more support forces for the KSK (160) and the Marine's special forces;

 

- more seagoing crew for the Marine;

 

- more UAV operators and imagery interpreters for the Luftwaffe;

 

- Luftwaffe personnel to operate a second deployed airlift base;

 

- more ground-based air defense personnel for the Luftwaffe from 2021;

 

- 500 more medical troops for deployed support.

[Dawes]

Is Germany still looking for a new infantry rifle?

[Skywalkre]

After a reality check against demographics etc

...

only about 7,000 additional soldiers can be recruited.

Why is such a paltry number all that can be realistically recruited?

[BansheeOne]

Coming out of a sag of births in the 90s, good economy with low unemployment and added competition by other uniformed services like Federal Police, only German citizens can join the Bundeswehr still, continued low attractivity/value of military service, though it's starting to change slowly. But we're talking of the 2023 time frame here.

[Panzermann]

 

 

 

After a reality check against demographics etc

...

only about 7,000 additional soldiers can be recruited.

Why is such a paltry number all that can be realistically recruited?

At the same time a force reduction plan from a few years ago is still ongoing via incentives to leave the Bundeswehr...

[Dark_Falcon]

Is Germany still looking for a new infantry rifle?

 

No. The G36 has passed many of the tests ordered for it since the scandal broke and it has done very well in Peshmerga hands in Iraq. Thus the German Army has decided to leave it in service for the time being.

 

The preceding is my own understanding and others here may know better than I.

[Panzermann]

 

 

Is Germany still looking for a new infantry rifle?

No. The G36 has passed many of the tests ordered for it since the scandal broke and it has done very well in Peshmerga hands in Iraq. Thus the German Army has decided to leave it in service for the time being.

 

The preceding is my own understanding and others here may know better than I.

They actually looking for a replacement, but as a normal process, not as panic buy.

 

At the moment they are at the stage to look at the market and decide what they want out of a new rifle and write up requirements.

[Dark_Falcon]

 

 

Is Germany still looking for a new infantry rifle?

No. The G36 has passed many of the tests ordered for it since the scandal broke and it has done very well in Peshmerga hands in Iraq. Thus the German Army has decided to leave it in service for the time being.

 

The preceding is my own understanding and others here may know better than I.

They actually looking for a replacement, but as a normal process, not as panic buy.

 

At the moment they are at the stage to look at the market and decide what they want out of a new rifle and write up requirements.

 

 

Thank you.

[BansheeOne]

Chart with the planned additional military and civilian Bundeswehr positions with implementation timelines. Red are enablers (increased capacities for training and medical support, additional personnel for recruitment and personnel management).

 

Blue are "beacon" projects, including 1,648 for the new Cyber and Information Command, 1,300 to compensate for the effects of implementing the EU worktime guideline (and also 100 for port watches on navy ships to the same end), 495 for deployed medical support, 400 for air defense missile forces, and 330 for operating and securing the second forward airbase; also, the additional boarding and bridging engineer company, as well as an HQ company for a special operations component command and the 160 to support the KSK and Kampfschwimmer, 70 for the establishment of the joint Dutch-German sealift capability, and 165 additional medical staff for the Bundeswehr hospitals.

 

Green are "grouped measure packages", and it all sounds similarly squishy, like 193 for short-term and 1,223 for long-term "internal optimizing of structures", as well as 490 for "various measures to achieve capability gains".

 

Yellow is "individual measures", including 360 for rotating crews for frigates, corvettes, replenishment ships and tankers, and 570 general enlisted naval personnel; 210 for airborne engineers and recon troops, and 425 for engineers, recon and artillery in general; 540 to fully staff battalion command posts of Force Base and 550 of the Heer (this is a very important point); 850 for Heer logistics, 125 for the Bundeswehr counter-intelligence service (MAD), 200 for logistics and command support of the second forward airbase, 290 to activate Dutch-German Panzerbataillon 414 (already being implemented), and 150 for Signal Battalion 610 for command support of HQ Multi-National Corps Northeast in Szczecin; also, an additional MP company.

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by BansheeOne

[Gregory]

Sounds like it's primarily to fill in the holes caused by the "peace dividend". Good to improve force resilience and endurance, but doesn't add much to the tip of the spear.

[BansheeOne]

That's pretty much it, mirroring the increase in equipment to get over the "dynamic availability management" bullshit. The current force structure isn't bad after all, though I still could do with more artillery among other things. But the important point is the political signal that the 25-year drawdown ends here.