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Gaza aid flotilla stopped by IDF, 10-16 dead reported


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Guest aevans

What does "outside neutral waters" mean here exactly? Outside sovereign waters of a neutral state or outside international waters?

 

Outside the sovereign waters of a neutral state.

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Guest aevans

Section (a) puts a whole different light on the legality of the raid, thanks for that. Were they given prior warning?

 

According to the article Tuccy posted in the beginning of the topic:

 

"Two hours later, Israel Radio broadcast a recording of one of the missile boats warning the flotilla not to approach Gaza.

 

'If you ignore this order and enter the blockaded area, the Israeli navy will be forced to take all the necessary measures in order to enforce this blockade,' the radio message continued."

 

quod erat demonstrandum

Edited by aevans
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Section (a) puts a whole different light on the legality of the raid, thanks for that. Were they given prior warning?

 

They were repeatedly told by IDF prior arriving that they were going to be stopped. Hell, one could read that from papers everyday.

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Have to add: Legally.

 

If nobody has the power or will to smithe thee, you can do whatever you want, its just not legal.

 

Took me 20 secs to find relevant international law document about issue. Israel has declared Hamas a belligerent in conflict (and Hamas has not denied it...:glare: ). According to international law, once Israel had placed a blockade against enemy (since both sides are considered to be in armed conflict), they were well within their rights to stop those ships and when resisted, to use force.

 

Do not confuse these issues with commercial and civilian sailing laws. These are "big boys rules" and internationally accepted. Thus, for example USA was not complaining, when it's ships were stopped and searched on international waters by nations in state of war. Neither in WW I or in WW II. In both cases USA was definitely able to do something about it, but because these rules have been recognized for looong time, they chose not to.

Edited by Sardaukar
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The whole purpose of this flotilla was to embarrass Israel and destroy relations with countries like Turkey.

Indeed, & the organisers must now be thanking Allah for the way the Israelis co-operated as hoped.

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Guest aevans

Indeed, & the organisers must now be thanking Allah for the way the Israelis co-operated as hoped.

 

What choice did Israel have?

 

Allow the convoy to proceed to Gaza? Not if they wanted the blockade to mean something.

 

Sink the convoy or at least drive it off with gunfire? Not likely, for reasons that should not need explanation.

 

Board the convoy and redirect it? The least bad choice, but open to all kinds of misadventure.

 

Once the decision was made to send the convoy, there was no way Israel was going to get away without getting its finger burned. Given the alternatives, I'm not at all convinced that this was all that bad.

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The israel was ina lose-lose situation. If they didn't stop the fleet, the damage would be probably much worse as they'd be forced to sink someone sooner rather than later as everyone and their dog would start to try blockade running.

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As aevans said, Israel had very little choises in matter..and I agree that they did choose "least bad" option.

 

If they had let them through, blockade would have been rendered meaningless...and one cannot usually sink civilian ships without very good reason. So, boarding and capture was basically the only option.

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On the other hand..I doubt anyone is going to try to breach the blockade again for a while. But I probably should not underestimate the craziness of the people trying that in first place. :P

 

(I just did learn new hebrew saying...""pitzutz shel mesiba"...:lol: )

Edited by Sardaukar
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Well there's an Irish ship that's planing to run the blockade... hopefully they'll have more sense.

 

While we're on topic of stopping ships - is it possible to disable a ship while it's running on it's own power? I assume some kind of cable in it's drive screws would do something to it, but is it practical?

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From viewing press reports, it looks like five of the ships went peacefully. The last one was full of combatants. I understand the benefit of abseiling onto the vessel from a helicopter, but where was support from the closest Israeli ship? I would expect that they'd have high pitched sound machines or rubber bullets available. In addition to the helicopter, would it not have been possible to swarm the ship from multiple small boats?

 

One thing remains missing from the press. There was zero pressure on Egypt. They have a blockade, too.

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According to some sources inc. Al jazzeera reporter the ship raised a whte flag prior to arrival of the commandos...

What was traditional sanction for fighting under the flag of truce?

I'm not sure that white flag applies at sea... what are the naval signs of surrender?

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My feeling is the operation went awry when the first commando fast roped in. Once you have one guy down you need to back/rescue him, no way was his team not going down. However the commander should have said “No” to boarding prior to that point as it was clear the descent was going to be contested. Bring in the biggest vessel start pressing up to the ship, use fire monitors to deluge the ship, gas and stun grenades, then over you in forc. By that time the other side has retreated inside. Take the bridge and begin to work down,

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I'm not sure that white flag applies at sea... what are the naval signs of surrender?

 

AFAIK intentional lowering of flag counts, but on pics of surrendering U-boats (inc. one surrender to aircraft) there can be visible white flags (impromptu - such as Captain's shirt).

Anyway most of the people onboard would be landlubbers, and on land the white flag is traditional instrument of surrender or truce.

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I'm not sure that white flag applies at sea... what are the naval signs of surrender?

 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Paul_Jones

 

I may sink, but I'll be damned if I strike!

 

A naval ship signals its intent to surrender by striking its colors, i.e. lowering its ensign.

 

The old timey thing for private and commercial vessels to do when challenged by naval or other authorities was to "heave to", i.e. turn into the wind so as to depower the sails to make boarding easier. I assume the modern equivalent is to bring a motor vessel to a standstill. I'm pretty sure a motor vessel that remains under way, regardless of whatever they fly from the mast, is not considered surrendered or detained.

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If I might politely point out, you and I are not highly-trained naval commandos. They used deadly force and embarrassed their government. They screwed up.

 

Paul, what magical powers from such training allows such men to ignore blunt force trauma to their face, arms, torsos and necks? Do they have more hitpoints or something?

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Paul, what magical powers from such training allows such men to ignore blunt force trauma to their face, arms, torsos and necks? Do they have more hitpoints or something?

 

Of course, man, don't you play video games, Evrywun knows that if youre facing "Elite" enemies or Commandos, they have more hitpoints! Such basics :rolleyes:

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Who is the winner of all this????

 

 

North Korea. Ain't no one talking about them sinking a ROK boat claiming the lives of 46 sailors. Let's see how fast the UNSC comes together to condemn Israel versus them coming together to condemn the DPRK.

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Of course, man, don't you play video games, Evrywun knows that if youre facing "Elite" enemies or Commandos, they have more hitpoints! Such basics :rolleyes:

 

And I love how these PEACEFUL protestors are beating on a Israeli,

or baseball bats.

 

And frankly, looking at this video, it seems to me that there getting wailed on and theres clearly a paintball gun up for shooting CS at the "protestors"(0:52). It also looks like, at several frames that the "protestors" have masks on. (0:45)

 

If they have masks, that pretty much makes CS balls and CS grenades useless.

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Acc

ording to international law, once Israel had placed a blockade against enemy (since both sides are considered to be in armed conflict), they were well within their rights to stop those ships and when resisted, to use force.

 

I don’t think the United States allowed Iran to stop and search tankers going to and from Iraq during the First Gulf War.

 

The israel was in a lose-lose situation. If they didn't stop the fleet, the damage would be probably much worse as they'd be forced to sink someone sooner rather than later as everyone and their dog would start to try blockade running.

 

What are the implications to another convoy? Is there a chance of a battle if another one comes? Does this crisis undermine or reinforce international consensus about Iran? Is this more or less important than Iran if Israel has to choose?

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OK so lets get this straight....

 

1. There is a Legal Blockade, patrolled by Israel

2. An Aid convoy leaves Turkey with the expressed intent of running the blockade to deliver humanitarian relief to Hamas and its supporters - Illegal Action

3. It takes over 700 workers/people to escort this aid (guess they are Galley slaves?)

4. Israel warns them to turn around - Their Legal right to do so

5. Israel attempts to board using non-lethal technology (paint ball guns) - again very legal

6. Israeli solders are swarmed by knife, baton and Molotov cock-tale throwing aid workers, some take the side arms off the non-aggressive soldiers

7. Soldiers open fire to defend themselves from the aid workers carrying weapons - Legal

8. Only 9-10 are killed?

 

So whats the problem?? The body count is too low?

 

The organizers should have followed Gandhi and sat down and chanted while the soldiers searched for contraband... and when and if non was found, put all the pressure on the Israeli government.. Boy they really screwed that last part up... they should be lucky they are not in Davy Jones Locker

 

This is much to do about nothing

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According to some sources inc. Al jazzeera reporter the ship raised a whte flag prior to arrival of the commandos...

What was traditional sanction for fighting under the flag of truce?

AIUI, it can be very bad. The appearance of a white flag would suggest that the ship was prepared to be boarded and searched. However, IIRC there are many legitimate "ruse de guerre" in naval warfare, e.g. flying a neutral / friendly flag right up until the moment you strike it and replace it with your colours and open fire. Perhaps I'm giving the people on the convoy too much credit.

 

In the absence of further evidence, I am minded to agree with Aevans above, and say the Israelis took the least worst route, when doing nothing was demonstrably NOT an option, and the "really heavy firepower method" is going to cause even more problems.

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Acc

 

I don't think the United States allowed Iran to stop and search tankers going to and from Iraq during the First Gulf War.

 

 

 

What are the implications to another convoy? Is there a chance of a battle if another one comes? Does this crisis undermine or reinforce international consensus about Iran? Is this more or less important than Iran if Israel has to choose?

 

Probably because USA was definitely not neutral in that conflict... Indeed, quite contrary, USA was aiding Iraq and Saddam Hussein that time.

 

Next convoy, Israel will do the same, because they will not have any better choice and it's even legal.

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