Steel Panthers MBT

[MBT 70 A GO GO]

Paul,

 

I for one, and I know many others who post here, would greatly appreciate it if you made your improved values available. Frankly, seeing the seemingly glaring inaccuracies in SP:MBT has rendered it virutally unplayable for me. Do your values cover both revisions to armor and ammo?

 

Thank you,

 

Tony

 

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

When you guys want to up date I have some improved values to update yourists.

 

In the meantime I have a question.When a shot comes not from the front hex, but to the one either side of the front hex...how is armor value calculated [iE horizontal 30o off]?

 

When I read the game manuel it seemed to say that heavy ERA was the same as adding 1 point to the KE armor for each ERA point....so does that mean that 14 is adding 14 points or 4 points?

 

If ERA covered tanks are invulnerable , then something is clearly wrong with their model.

[Sam]

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

When you guys want to up date I have some improved values to update your lists.

 

In the meantime I have a question.When a shot comes not from the front hex, but to the one either side of the front hex...how is armor value calculated [iE horizontal 30o off]?

 

When I read the game manuel it seemed to say that heavy ERA was the same as adding 1 point to the KE armor for each ERA point....so does that mean that 14 is adding 14 points or 4 points?

 

If ERA covered tanks are invulnerable , then something is clearly wrong with their model.

 

Paul, I would appreciate anything you can give me.

 

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the advanced ERA would stop one penetrator per ever point above 10, so a 19 value would be considered as 9 A-ERA tiles, being able to stop 9 APFSDS shots (randomly? or does it add 25cm?).

 

I may have exaggerated when I said invulnerable, but if you can't get to the base armor until the 10th shot? the 60cm turret front on the M1A2, Leo 2A5, etc... will be KO'ed long before then. This is the main reason I think the values should be changed.

 

I do plan on looking at the penetration values, but I think the armor values are more urgent.

 

Paul, do you think 25cm is reasonable for the C2 applique? If you look at the section near the TURMS FCS, next to the gun, it is very thick, looks like 4 times the thickness of the applique on the outer edge of the turret front.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by Sam:

Paul, I would appreciate anything you can give me.

 

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the advanced ERA would stop one penetrator per ever point above 10, so a 19 value would be considered as 9 A-ERA tiles, being able to stop 9 APFSDS shots (randomly? or does it add 25cm?).

 

I may have exaggerated when I said invulnerable, but if you can't get to the base armor until the 10th shot? the 60cm turret front on the M1A2, Leo 2A5, etc... will be KO'ed long before then. This is the main reason I think the values should be changed.

 

I do plan on looking at the penetration values, but I think the armor values are more urgent.

 

Paul, do you think 25cm is reasonable for the C2 applique? If you look at the section near the TURMS FCS, next to the gun, it is very thick, looks like 4 times the thickness of the applique on the outer edge of the turret front.

 

 

 

Sam the applque looks thick enough but, with out a weight measure I;d be guessing into space at its performance. Even if you could find out if improve hp of the engine is offset by weight...then we could guestimate the mass....Is it my imagination or is it only on the front turret?

[Sam]

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

Sam the applque looks thick enough but, with out a weight measure I;d be guessing into space at its performance. Even if you could find out if improve hp of the engine is offset by weight...then we could guestimate the mass....Is it my imagination or is it only on the front turret?

 

I have to email a friend of mine in Italy, perhaps he can help us.

 

The picture from the front looks like it kind of wraps around the turret, but the side pics don't seem to have any extra armor. The usual equipment is missing from the sides, so maybe the side plates just weren't fitted in these pics. I believe Pierantonio will be getting alot of pictures from a source in France, maybe we will learn more then.

 

There is also some thick armor added to the front hull sides.

 

To quote my source in the Italian Army (and he has been completely accrurate concerning the existence of the applique, when everyone else said otherwise) he said "mobility was non-existent with the armor fitted", and this prompted the engine uprade (1600hp).

[Sam]

After looking at the pics again, if you zoom in you can see there is a thick plate over the whole side turret.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by Sam:

I have to email a friend of mine in Italy, perhaps he can help us.

 

.

 

To quote my source in the Italian Army (and he has been completely accrurate concerning the existence of the applique, when everyone else said otherwise) he said "mobility was non-existent with the armor fitted", and this prompted the engine uprade (1600hp).

 

 

OK thats a start....I got 1300hp @ 54,000kg....so if we assume 1600hp is to rectify this problem we get ~ 1.23 increase in mass to 66,460kg?

 

what about ground pressure?JANEs reports 0.85kg/cm²...@ 54,000kg 63529cm².... If thats right @ 66,460kg that would be ~ 1.05kg/cm².

 

Can you look into that speculation?

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by MBT 70 A GO GO:

Paul,

 

I for one, and I know many others who post here, would greatly appreciate it if you made your improved values available.  Frankly, seeing the seemingly glaring inaccuracies in SP:MBT has rendered it virutally unplayable for me.  Do your values cover both revisions to armor and ammo?

 

Thank you,

 

Tony

 

High Tony most of the armor values that we have summerized can be found on Joe Collins website ....he even includes some APFSDS armor penetration values but these are @ 2km range.This way you get the 'sum of all of our knowledge'.

 

I will update only the ones I've rescently been working on!

http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm

[MrOuija]

High Tony most of the armor values that we have summerized can be found on Joe Collins website ....he even includes some APFSDS armor penetration values but these are @ 2km range.This way you get the 'sum of all of our knowledge'.

I will update only the ones I've rescently been working on!

 

Paul- Is MBT's armor model model based on mm ? If your listing is 940-960 mm KE protection for the M1A2SEP would this be translated in MBT's terms as 94 or 96 ? If so, this would appear to be a nice resource to do some MOB armor revisions. Though I wonder if one would also have to do complete gun and ammo revisions to match the new armor as well. Only tank I see missing is the Merkava series..

[Sam]

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

OK thats a start....I got 1300hp @ 54,000kg....so if we assume 1600hp is to rectify this problem we get ~ 1.23 increase in mass to 66,460kg?

 

what about ground pressure?JANEs reports 0.85kg/cm²...@ 54,000kg 63529cm².... If thats right @ 66,460kg that would be ~ 1.05kg/cm².

 

Can you look into that speculation?

 

I'll see what I can find. I am hoping the friend I mentioned earlier can help us. I will email him over the weekend.

[Sam]

Originally posted by MrOuija:

Paul- Is MBT's armor model model based on mm ? If your listing is 940-960 mm KE protection for the M1A2SEP would this be translated in MBT's terms as 94 or 96 ? If so, this would appear to be a nice resource to do some MOB armor revisions. Though I wonder if one would also have to do complete gun and ammo revisions to match the new armor as well. Only tank I see missing is the Merkava series..

 

That's correct, SP:MBT armor values are in centimeters.

 

I haven't really looked into the penetration values much, but the 120mm DM-53 seems pretty good.

 

120mm L44 DM-53 = 84cm

 

120mm L55 DM-53 = 90cm

 

Paul, that's pretty close isn't it?

 

I think the Russian BM-42M will need to be changed, I believe the 125mm on the T-80UM2 only has a 71cm value.

 

 

 

[Edited by Sam (21 Jul 2002).]

[Sam]

I personally don't see the point in purposely lowering the NATO/western armor values, and then having to compensate for that by lowering the W.P./Russian penetration values.

 

It's very frustrating...

 

I have to point out, despite this annoyance, it still is the best version yet.

[MrOuija]

That's correct, SP:MBT armor values are in centimeters.

 

Thanks, that's good to know. I always thought they were arbitrary. I do wonder though if Russian tanks don't get a big boost since lower hull hits are fairly rare, and that's where their main weakness seems to be, not to mention the unpredictable advanced ERA.

 

Is anyone inputting these numbers ? It would help gameplay a good deal IMO. If we get a few people together maybe the MOB's could be divided up and updated.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by MrOuija:

Thanks, that's good to know. I always thought they were arbitrary. I do wonder though if Russian tanks don't get a big boost since lower hull hits are fairly rare, and that's where their main weakness seems to be, not to mention the unpredictable advanced ERA.

 

.

 

 

If that where only true it would make every thing so much easier!

 

I just finished an armor analysis of T-55/62 with 'BDD' applique. On both the turret and hull , the armor can be divided in to heavy and light half... 55% of the hull [glacis] is ~ 35cm KE & 37cm HEAT , while 44% is the lower hull @ 18cm KE & HEAT.

 

In the turret you have a similar distribution.

1/4 of the turret profile is ~ 48cm KE & 50cm HEAT and 1/3 of the turret profile is 35cm KE & 41cm HEAT...while the rest [almost half] is 18cm KE & 19cm HEAT.....

 

In summery this tank over all with BDD armor , should result in

 

40% profile offering ~ 35cm KE & 37-40cm HEAT [2/6]

15% profile offering ~ 48-50cm KE & 45-50cm HEAT [1/6]

45% profile offering ~ 18cm KE & HEAT [3/6]

 

Now from a 30° off angle on the turret the weak area is reduced to 1/3 of the profile and the average value is consistantly about 34-36cm KE & 39-43cm HEAT

 

One solution is to make 1/2 the target, the heavy armor and the other half the base armor [with out applique].....if one squits his imagination...the upper front turret is @ 79°...if this was seen as the tank in "hull down" it might be @ 83°...in which case the resistance would be ~ 30-33cm..so maybe the front turret can be made average of the heavy armor ~ 40cm KE & 43cm HEAT , while the front hull is left @ 18cm KE & HEAT.

 

This distribution problem seems to be consistant with all soviet tanks from the T-64 on, so it can't be ignored!

[DogDodger]

Originally posted by Sam:

BTW, I just recieved a catalog from www.cheaperthandirt.com,  and they had an M-735 penetrator in the catalog for $69. Thought you might be interested.

 

Off-topic: OK, I just got a job, and my first impulse buy was...this. Much cooler than a lava lamp. But the online description is full of errors, and I'm not exactly sure what they sent me. Does anyone have any dimensions handy for M735? FAS doesn't list a training 105mm FSDS round at http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/105t.htm ; was there one?

 

Thanks,

Chris

[tankkid85]

I have a few questions regardign this game. First off I love it but I am still having problems with my M242 CG's. I took 4 shots at a BMP-2 at 200 meters, all flank shots. First of all half of them didnt hit, the ones that managed to hit didnt penetrate. Can anyone tell me how I would go about modifying the penetration values for 25mm sabot rounds since this is greatly annoying me.

 

Also does anyone have any Campaigns for this game yet? any good WW3 scenarios or good updated MOB's?

 

Steve

[MrOuija]

tankkid- Open up mobhack, find the model of Bradley you wish to change in the unit list. Find its weapon number. Now go to the weapon list and find that number. (Should be number 74) Edit the penetration numbers however you want. Save and you're done.

 

There are some good scenarios and updated MOB's on the yahoo MBT site.

[MrOuija]

High Tony most of the armor values that we have summerized can be found on Joe Collins website ....he even includes some APFSDS armor penetration values but these are @ 2km range.This way you get the 'sum of all of our knowledge'.

I will update only the ones I've rescently been working on!

 

Looking forward to this..Will your update include revisions of any posted stats ? I ask because after bouncing an 120mm shell off a T-80 for the millioneth time i've decided to update the armor values across the board, using your stats. Don't want to get halfway and find out that i'm off or something. Do you have any suggestions regarding side and rear armor ? There doesn't seem to be a complete listing of those on your site, and I hate to do a update and leave those the same.

[Paul Lakowski]

Game question, if a armored vehicle is struck from straight on the front armor is used , while if the attack strikes the vehicle side, the side armor is used.

 

What happens if the attack hits the vehicle inbetween the front and the side of the vehicle....which armor is used?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

MrOuija, just to be clear the website is Joe Collins.I'll try to draw up a list soon with all the front and side armor values for the tanks.Some of these will be old though!

[Burncycle360]

Both. Sometimes it's front, sometimes its side

[Matt Urbanski]

Originally posted by tankkid85:

I have a few questions regardign this game. First off I love it but I am still having problems with my M242 CG's. I took 4 shots at a BMP-2 at 200 meters, all flank shots. First of all half of them didnt hit, the ones that managed to hit didnt penetrate. Can anyone tell me how I would go about modifying the penetration values for 25mm sabot rounds since this is greatly annoying me.

 

Also does anyone have any Campaigns for this game yet? any good WW3 scenarios or good updated MOB's?

 

Steve

 

Hmm... A german Marder only packs a 20mm gun, and in a game I played, the 20mm sabot was just chewing up Soviet APC's at least three or four hexes out, from any aspect. I think I even managed to immobilize a couple of tanks with lower hull hits... What gives?

 

 

 

[Edited by Matt Urbanski (26 Jul 2002).]

[alpha]

hello.

 

mmhhh... i have not the prob with the 25mm gun.

it works good. the 30mm rarden,too.

20mm german gun seems to be quite good,too

what surprises me a little because of low diameter.

 

i don´t think that the weapons data is that bad, but the

armor ratings are sometimes strange. and prices,too!

 

i posted this in the yahoo group of SPMBT and i hope

to get some better workarounds in V2!!

 

but MLRS is a real killer....stalled some T80U on a road with

some INF units and per coincide excactly on this road was a pre-

registered arty target hex...the MLRS killed about 10 tanks and

even finishes some of the crews. remaining crews were gunned by some MG units. the BMP2´s were killed at long ranges by challengers and chieftains. a complete disaster for the russians...

 

Originally posted by Matt Urbanski:

  Hmm... A german Marder only packs a 20mm gun, and in a game I played, the 20mm sabot was just chewing up Soviet APC's at least three or four hexes out, from any aspect. I think I even managed to immobilize a couple of tanks with lower hull hits... What gives?

 

<font size=1>[Edited by Matt Urbanski (26 Jul 2002).]

 

 

 

[Edited by alpha (26 Jul 2002).]

[tankkid85]

For me Bradley 25mm kills are so rare I keep count. since I got the game last month I have played countless games and had hundreds if not more of encounters with Bradley's and BMP's. I have had a total of 4 25mm kills up untill recently. Now I upped the sabot power of the gun by a few points. It still doesnt kill BMP-3's but it works most of the time on BMP-1 and 2's and i have gotten some kills on Tunguska's at range. I cant figure out why I am the only one having these problems.. though I have been able tog et kills on BMP-2's with 50.cal SLAP and OCWS fire,which is why the 25mm puzzles me so much. All seems well now though. I havent played as the germans or british all that much so im not sure how well their Autocannons perform, though I will check it out.

 

All in all this is an excellent game. Gotta agree about the MLRS, wicked cool

 

Steve

[Burncycle360]

I've got a prob with the bradley too

 

It won't hit anything much less kill it when it does hit it

 

I've resorted to parking it on infantry and tieing them to the end of the gun to hit them. (and even then it may not kill em, lol)

 

If anyone can release a bunch of tweaks to make it more realistic, feel free to post a whole list. I'll go into mobhack and edit all of em

 

I was bored so I made a fictional vehicle: Basically a country bought up some M551 sheridans and reverse engineered them. Bigger engine, and They removed the filler in between the armor plate and filled it with steel plates and rubber to boost the armor value (the added weight also keeps the front down when fireing). The gun is still 152mm but it has two options- one peice thermobaric ammunition (russian custom designed), and TOW missile with a sabot, so it can fit in the barrel. The tank is no longer air droppable but this lil country doesen't do air operations

 

The thermobaric ammunition is listed as "napalm". So much fun!

 

 

[Edited by Burncycle360 (27 Jul 2002).]

[tankkid85]

Today out of pure boredome I putzed around with MOBHACK. I created a Crusader based on PanzerHaubitz 2000, there is actually a picture file int he games library, you jsut have to find it. I wrote down the number if anyone wants it. Adjusted some stuff and bam, the US has a new artillery system from 2008-2020. I adjusted my Bradleys and gave the A2 up a M242B 25mm CG which I increased the sabot penetration and the sights anf FCS for the A3 models. I created an M1114 HMMWV. Threw an OCWS and M249 SAW on it htough you can put any type of 50 cal or Mk 19 on it as well. Also gave it a thermal sight so it can be used as a scout vehicle. Adjusted a bunch of other things, created an M1A6 with an EM rail gun i took from another US Army MOB file I downlaoded from the SPMBT yahoo group. Repalced hte standard M2HB on all M1's post 2002 with M2 SLAP. The M1A6 also has upgraded armor, basiclly an uber panzer if there ever was one, Its a huge force multiplier so I wont deploy more than a platoon of them to reinforce the M1A2 SEP's. all in all this is good fun. Anyone else have any interesting units or mods they made or adjusted, or suggestions to make existingones more realistic?

 

Steve

[DogDodger]

Originally posted by Burncycle360:

The gun is still 152mm but it has two options- one peice thermobaric ammunition (russian custom designed), and TOW missile with a sabot, so it can fit in the barrel.

 

Isn't TOW 152mm diameter? Missiles before TOW 2 had a 5" warhead, but I thought the missile itself was always 6" across.

 

Thanks,

Chris