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Some video's on Chinese sites.

http://v.ifeng.com/mil/201010/f690f986-c521-4459-9992-1f0659d249dd.shtml

Will (should) play by itself, shows variety of tank models w/ 100, 200, 300 and 400 series tactical numbers. These might be the regiments of the 105th Armored Division, a unit going back to pre-KW, whose numbers were as such at that time. The unit is still often mentioned in propaganda. If so, not even this elite division is wholly outfitted even with T-62's let alone upgraded developments; 1st Regt seems to have T-55's.

 

http://v.ifeng.com/special/101010kingyue/index.shtml

Click links with 'camera' icons a bit down the page. The first two are mainly tanks, but some others show interesting vehicles of other kinds. Note close up on glacis ERA(?) of the upgunned tanks with 400 series tactical numbers.

 

Joe

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Guest JamesG123

I think its cute. The last of the hard core commies. The UN should declare all of North Korea the world museum of failed social experiments and provide just enough aid and support to keep them propped up and cranky... Oh wait, we already do.

 

 

What are those little aprons in the hull for, besides keeping drafts away from the driver's private parts?

 

HEAT Pre-detonator for the lower hull front.

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Another angle, of a slightly different type of vehicle than the lead one in the other picture, without the screens, and smoke projector arrangement is different, at least. The sign appears similar though approx= 'enemy for whom the Korean people hold a deep rooted enmity-EXTINGUISH ALL THE AMERICAN IMPERIALIST AGGRESSORS!'. (not all that different from slogans on T-34's in 1950, for that matter ;) )

 

 

Joe

 

the armor behind the frontal plate seems empty

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Some observations up to this point...

 

The North Koreans paraded three "new" tanks during the parade this past weekend:

 

1. Ch'onma Upgrade: almost certainly fitted with a 125mm main gun, new turret frontal armor (maybe a completely new turret outer shell which implies spaced or composite armor)...giving it a unique and slightly odd shape, either ERA or reactive armor on the glacis, a new (old?) LRF above the main gun and a pintle-mounted shoulder-fired SAM. According to official South Korean reports in 1998 and 1999, the North Koreans have put larger guns on their "T-62" tanks, and in 2000, they described the new tanks as the "domestically-produced T-62 Ch'onma-ho tanks that feature larger caliber munitions."

 

By null at 2010-10-11

 

2. "M2009-1/M2010-1" (my designations): this appears to be the tank we initially saw earlier in 2009 and 2010 which reliable sources identified as the long-awaited P'okpoong: apparently still mounting the 115mm main gun, removable turret frontal armor arrays, add-on glacis armor array (resembling BDD armor), (probable) LRF mounted above the main gun, what appear to be multiple sensor masts and upgraded hull armor skirting at the front of the hull. This tank shows Russian, Chinese and Romanian influences and could in-fact be the P'okpoong (if the reports of the P'okpoong being based on the T-72 are wrong or the relationship to the T-72 is below the skin).

 

By null at 2010-10-11

 

3. "M2010-2" (my designation): this tank could be related to the "M2009-1/M2010-1" with one or the other being a prototype or the export variant or the "Premium" model intended for high priority units. This tank appears to retain the 115mm main gun as well as the removable (although not identical), turret front armor arrays...although the lifting-eyes aren't visible on the "M2010-2." The additional exterior glacis armor is also missing (perhaps the glacis armor has been improved to the point where the additional armor isn't required?). Finally, the (probable) LRF mounted above the main gun appears to be a little different as well.

 

By null at 2010-10-11

 

Time will tell...

Edited by Jim Warford
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1. Ch'onma Upgrade:

 

I suppose Ch'onma Upgrade is what was before known as mysterious Pokpung-ho - 125 mm gun, new hull driver is in center, new turret. M2009-1/M2010-1" and "M2010-2" are probably Ch'onma Upgrade

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I suppose Ch'onma Upgrade is what was before known as mysterious Pokpung-ho - 125 mm gun, new hull driver is in center, new turret. M2009-1/M2010-1" and "M2010-2" are probably Ch'onma Upgrade

 

Hark; you may be right; of the three "new" tanks in the parade, the tank I referred to as the "Ch'onma Upgrade" is actually more likely the tank known as the P'okpoong (based on what little information is available...T-72 level of technology, driver in the center of the hull and a 125mm main gun). The new turret is very interesting...it's oddly shaped and appears almost too large for the hull. Maybe this is the first North Korean composite armored turret? The other two paraded tanks are clearly further developments of the Ch'onma series...interestingly enough, the well-known Ch'onma III (M1992) was absent from this parade.

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Hark; you may be right; of the three "new" tanks in the parade, the tank I referred to as the "Ch'onma Upgrade" is actually more likely the tank known as the P'okpoong (based on what little information is available...T-72 level of technology, driver in the center of the hull and a 125mm main gun).

This ROK site, FWIW, concludes that the 420-430 series tactical number tanks are an upgunned T-62 of some type other than 'cheonma'. It also points out another apparent difference between the M2009-1/2010-1 and 2010-2, per your nomenclature. The former, which include tactical numbers 310 and 410 series, have 6 road wheels and it considers them 'pokpung'. The 320 series tactical number tanks, which I believe are same as 2010-2 in your photo, appear to have 5, and it considers them cheonma.

 

Apparently NK TV referred to the tank shown earlier in 2010 (the original subject of the thread) as pokpung, similar to the 310/410 series. Some NK weapons' names actually come from ROK/US, not DPRK, like missile names nodong and taepodong, but pokpung is apparently a real DPRK name.

 

http://exnavydoc.egloos.com/3040445

 

 

Joe

Edited by JOE BRENNAN
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Another video, which clarifies that the apparent 125mm gun tanks with driver on centerline, such as tac no 438 in post 62, also have 6 roadwheels per side (see it at around 3:00). Thus among the 'new' tanks in the parade (IOW besides Type 59's and regular T-62's) only the 320 series tanks have 5 roadwheels a side. The link also has a listing of all the tactical numbers of the 'new' tanks appearing.

 

See close-up of the NK 6 wheel armored vehicle at 5:04. The forward part of the hull is different than WZ 523, besides different turret, so seems just a similar concept rather than the same type.

 

http://dutchne.egloos.com/3043997

 

Joe

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This one?

 

 

Chinese WZ-523 APC.

 

No, I'm not so rusty I'll confuse that with a BTR.

 

I'm having a hell of a time finding a good photo of the thing. If you go here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/oct/10/north-korea-kim-jong-il-parade-kim-jong-un you'll see it right quick at 1:02 on the video. See it over the reporter's shoulder again at 2:04.

 

[Edit: Aha.. Got a screen grab from this video: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/oct/12/north-korea-kim-jong-il

 

 

They've put the same turret on MTLBs, it seems. (From later on in the second video)

 

NTM

Edited by Manic Moran
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I was surprised to see those MT-LB, I thought the North Koreans pretty exclusively used their own VTT-323 (and a few BMPs they imported)? Also I thought I saw some other BTR-type vehicles 8x8 with the twin 14.5mm, I am pretty sure the N Koreans got some BTR-80s, did they modify them with that twin 14.5mm turret?

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...the tank I referred to as the "Ch'onma Upgrade" is actually more likely the tank known as the P'okpoong (based on what little information is available...T-72 level of technology, driver in the center of the hull and a 125mm main gun). The new turret is very interesting...it's oddly shaped and appears almost too large for the hull. Maybe this is the first North Korean composite armored turret? The other two paraded tanks are clearly further developments of the Ch'onma series...interestingly enough, the well-known Ch'onma III (M1992) was absent from this parade.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the P'okpoong is in fact, the tank with the driver in the center of the hull and the 125mm main gun (see pics below). While it may not be based on the T-72 it clearly was the North Korean attempt to keep up with the other countries out there that either had T-72s or T-72-like tanks. They could have easily gotten help from the Russians, the Chinese, the Syrians (who had T-72s and an ongoing relationship with North Korea) or the Romanians (to name a few). The other two "new" paraded tanks (the "M2009-1/M2010-1" and the "M2010-2"), apparently evolutionary upgrades of the Ch'onma series of tanks, could be less expensive and newer tanks intended to be produced in larger numbers. Hmmm...

 

By null at 2010-10-20

 

By null at 2010-10-20

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

[Edit: Aha.. Got a screen grab from this video: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/oct/12/north-korea-kim-jong-il

 

 

Seems one of these vehicles is leading every 9-tank group in the parade. So, could it be a some sort of recce/C&C vehicle that is attached to each tank company in their batallions?

 

The vehicle is really mysterious. Id does look exactly like a BTR (not like a chinese coppy), but shortened. But why did they choose to scale down the BTR? (I assume this is a domestic NK design).

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The vehicle is really mysterious. Id does look exactly like a BTR (not like a chinese coppy), but shortened. But why did they choose to scale down the BTR? (I assume this is a domestic NK design).

 

Did they scale it down, though? I'm looking at the gap where the door is, and trying to figure out if you actually could fit a fourth axle on it, a la BTR-60 of which I'm sure they have many.

 

Back end and overall profile looks more 70 though, but then, that one does have a small gap between the #2 and #3 axles, I'm not sure that you could fit the fourth axle onto this NK vehicle and still leave the -70 sized gap for the half-door.

 

NTM

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