Movies

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont remember that in the book, or is it, I just dont want to REMEMBER that from the book?

[Yama]

On 5/27/2024 at 1:12 PM, Soren Ras said:

There I disagree with you. For one thing, Christopher Tolkien did not attempt to write his own stories. The 12-volume History of Middle Earth that he put together is basically an annotated presentation of the scraps and notes that Tolkien made along the way, including multiple different versions of the same stories, in order to show the evolution of the world building and the degree to which Tolkien was wrestling with his creation.

When Christopher published the Silmarillion in 1977 (four years after his father's passing), he was at that time making editorial decisions on which versions of the various tales to include.  That also meant some bits were left out or specific decisions on genealogy were made by Christopher (with implications for the overall narrative) in areas where his father was still undecided.  There remained a very large portion of unpublished manuscripts covering not only the very earliest conception of Middle Earth, but also the making of the Lord of the Rings and a lot of the never settled stories of the Silmarillion that were the focus of Tolkien's last years.

Silmarillion actually has some passages written by Christopher and Guy Kay, simply because Tolkien had never written them down. This is why some very important characters and events, most notably Dior and ruin of Doriath, get very cursory treatments: Tolkien had an idea what would happen, but he never really put it on paper.

My own first reading of Silmarillion went like with many others: I began with Ainulindale and thought, whoah, this is impossible to read, I don't get this at all. I skipped forward to Fëanor, Nirnaeth Arnoediad and so on, and thought, whoah! This is epic! All the little bits of mythology and name drops in LotR and The Hobbit suddenly came alive and got a meaning. 

[Yama]

On 5/27/2024 at 7:00 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Remembering my time with Lord of the rings, the first 2 books were not too bad (other than what I seem to remember being the almost incomprehensible passage when Gandalf passes into shadow). But the beginning of the 3rd book was hard, very hard. I sometimes wonder how the hell 14 year old me stuck with it.

Most boring part of LotR is Frodo's and Sam's travel to Black Gate: Tolkien himself noted that he had to force himself to write that part, as it just could not be handwaved away.

[Yama]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:41 PM, Skywalkre said:

Paul's arc was... ok... but again just everything was rushed.  In just the first few sequences of the film he goes from this awkward, off-worlder tagging along with the Fremen to leading them against the Harkonnen in a guerilla fight?  That needed way more development.

The only character that felt right was Gurney, honestly.

On a different note... why does everyone love Zendaya?  Her character was... meh.  Frankly, she also looks like she's in desperate need of a meal.  It's actually uncomfortable looking at her in pics IRL (thankfully the stillsuits made it look like she had meat on her bones).

Fremen are supposed to be skinny  It's actually mentioned in the book, how they more or less call outworlders 'fatties' or something to that effect.

She's very charismatic; recently I saw Challengers, and it was awesome. She felt and looked very credible top athlete there (unlike, say, Kirsten Dunst in Wimbledon). However, Chani's character is very much a third fiddle in the story behind Paul and Jessica, and real love story is actually between them (not in that way...). To be blunt, she is pretty much a pawn for Paul.

Also, Timothée and Zendaya don't really have the chemistry one would expect. It's somewhat lukewarm.

 

On 5/26/2024 at 9:41 PM, Skywalkre said:

- The final duel at the end was awful.  Paul takes two serious wounds (three, actually, if you include him grabbing the blade with his hand... I was grimacing at that) and keeps going while Feyd-Rautha takes one and keels over immediately?  How about having Paul actually win?  That fight was so anti-climatic.  The whole sequence reeked of Blue-Eyed Samurai where the heroine there started out human and somehow transformed into a God midway without the proper development which just made everything feel off.

- And how did all those Fremen get so close to the Harkonnen and the Emperor?  Maybe the books explain this but in a world with this much tech how are the Fremen not spotted?  The last ten minutes of the film just felt all too... convenient.

It's all pretty much what I criticized - the final duel was crap - it has no story - and all the Harkonnen's were killed off in anticlimatic and unceremonious fashion. Movie compresses like 7 years into 7 months, in the book Alia was actually born and acting on her own (and in some ways, surpassing Paul in abilities).

As noted I liked the movie first two-thirds or so. It had the same strength as the first part - seeing and feeling how fictional universe you loved is brought to life. It's the same feeling I got from Jackson's Fellowship, or early seasons of Game of Thrones. But hyper-compressed ending really sours my view. In fairness to the movie, ending of the book is also somewhat compressed.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Yama

[Skywalkre]

48 minutes ago, Yama said:

Fremen are supposed to be skinny  It's actually mentioned in the book, how they more or less call outworlders 'fatties' or something to that effect.

She's very charismatic; recently I saw Challengers, and it was awesome. She felt and looked very credible top athlete there (unlike, say, Kirsten Dunst in Wimbledon). However, Chani's character is very much a third fiddle in the story behind Paul and Jessica, and real love story is actually between them (not in that way...). To be blunt, she is pretty much a pawn for Paul.

Also, Timothée and Zendaya don't really have the chemistry one would expect. It's somewhat lukewarm.

So... this is Vlleneuve trying to make more of a character where there wasn't one in the books.  That could explain a good bit.

Also, more than just their lack of chemistry... their relationship never made any sense.  At moments it's made to appear like some soul connection but then just seconds later on screen you'll see such open hostility from Chani to who Paul is, his mission, what the other Fremen believe he is... it just didn't make any sense and their relationship (and her 'betrayal' at the end) felt so forced.

51 minutes ago, Yama said:

It's all pretty much what I criticized - the final duel was crap - it has no story - and all the Harkonnen's were killed off in anticlimatic and unceremonious fashion. Movie compresses like 7 years into 7 months, in the book Alia was actually born and acting on her own (and in some ways, surpassing Paul in abilities).

As noted I liked the movie first two-thirds or so. It had the same strength as the first part - seeing and feeling how fictional universe you loved is brought to life. It's the same feeling I got from Jackson's Fellowship, or early seasons of Game of Thrones. But hyper-compressed ending really sours my view. In fairness to the movie, ending of the book is also somewhat compressed.

This movie definitely needed to be split into two or even three films itself.  Watching it felt like... watching a series of YT clips spliced together.  It was just so... disjointed... with no flow.

Something else was also a turn-off for me that I've been struggling to piece together.  As I've mentioned I've never read the books but I am aware there are some, how to say it, weird elements in the Dune lore.  Something Villeneuve did well in the first movie was to downplay these really weird elements and give just the bare minimum of what viewers needed to know.  This second film, I felt, gave too much background into those elements.  It's like contrasting the Force from the OT Star Wars trilogy to the prequels where Lucas just ruined what was this cool, mysterious element of the universe.

[Skywalkre]

Godzilla Minus One just came out on Netflix so I thought I'd give it a try.  I heard it had great reviews, and apparently is a 98%/98% on RT.

I made it through the first half of the movie just fine.  Having your protagonist be a kamikaze pilot who couldn't go through with his mission, and the resulting interaction with other military personnel who figured that out and later with citizens in Japan was an interesting arc to see (I'd actually love to know more about how often this happened and what life was like for said individuals).  The whole non-wife taking care of her non-child with this protagonist doing his part was also rather interesting.

But... the film, even early on, suffered from bad elements.  I had no sympathies for all the mechanics that died in the opening.  They died because one was an idiot and then several more followed up with even more idiotic actions.  I also don't buy that the protagonist should feel guilty about not firing with the guns from his plane... given how they represented Godzilla in that early part I doubt it would have done anything more than piss him off.

Then there was the scene with the... Takao?  It wasn't quite F-22/F-35s-doing-gun-runs-level-of-stupid like we've seen out of the Hollywood Godzilla movies but getting as close as it did was just... dumb.

But what made me pause the film for the evening was the death of the non-wife.  She pushed the protagonist to safety and stood in the blast... why?  Why didn't she... push both of them out of the way?  That bit of contrived drama/suffering just made me roll my eyes.

Since then I've tried going back to finish it but it hasn't gotten much better.  The protagonist has gone full emo and the introduction of the vunder-veapon fighter for the protagonist to fly but their inability to find ANYONE that would know how to fix it accept for the lone surviving mechanic from the opening is, again, just too forced.  Not even sure I'll finish it at this point.

I'm just scratching my head at how the ratings across the board are so high on RT.

ETA - Forgot the bit where Godzilla is walking down the road and all the civilians just keep running in front of him (and are eventually overtaken).  No one apparently thought to run... perpendicularly into areas he couldn't follow.  Again, felt contrived to have all these people running in the most opportunistic way for Godzilla to step on them.  (And before anyone mentions, yes, sometimes Godzilla took out a building to his side... but the main point is no one was out-running him so just staying in front was pure idiocy.  Running down allies and smaller streets to the side had potential, at least.)

Edited June 11, 2024 by Skywalkre

[Ivanhoe]

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Also tried Godzilla minus one. Beginning was good, but I soon got bored, but finished it all the same. I could not understand the good grades it got. It sure was decent,  maybe 3/5.

Rewatched first Car movie last weekend with family. Still an amazing movie.

[Skywalkre]

I will give the movie praise for one remarkable thing - what they accomplished with their budget.  I had heard the movie was made on the cheap and it just didn't look like it.  Then I looked up the budget and apparently it was only $12 million!  I probably won't finish the movie but I'd certainly be interested in watching something explain how they pulled off everything they did with so little money.

[urbanoid]

 

[Ivanhoe]

Amusing quip from FB;

"Isn't it amazing how the movie by David Lynch spawned a whole book series?"

 

[Yama]

On 6/11/2024 at 2:49 AM, Skywalkre said:

So... this is Vlleneuve trying to make more of a character where there wasn't one in the books.  That could explain a good bit.

Little bit yes, though not to same extent as with say, Arwen in Jackson's LotR movies.

It's been decades since I last read the books, but Chani was more passive character there. For example, she took it to the chin when Paul announced he wold marry Irulan.

Paul is basically product of manufactured Bene Gesserit prophecy which spiralled out of control and got life of its own. To fulfill the prophecy, he needs Chani to integrate with the Fremen, and to breed, obviously. I think Villeneuve does fairly good job showing that Paul uses others as tools, and he is ultimately one himself.

But not sure where they go from here. Dune Messiah concludes Paul's story just fine, but the conflict and antagonists in it are unremarkable.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Yama

[futon]

On 6/11/2024 at 8:59 AM, Skywalkre said:

Godzilla Minus One just came out on Netflix so I thought I'd give it a try.  I heard it had great reviews, and apparently is a 98%/98% on RT.

I made it through the first half of the movie just fine.  Having your protagonist be a kamikaze pilot who couldn't go through with his mission, and the resulting interaction with other military personnel who figured that out and later with citizens in Japan was an interesting arc to see (I'd actually love to know more about how often this happened and what life was like for said individuals).  The whole non-wife taking care of her non-child with this protagonist doing his part was also rather interesting.

But... the film, even early on, suffered from bad elements.  I had no sympathies for all the mechanics that died in the opening.  They died because one was an idiot and then several more followed up with even more idiotic actions.  I also don't buy that the protagonist should feel guilty about not firing with the guns from his plane... given how they represented Godzilla in that early part I doubt it would have done anything more than piss him off.

Then there was the scene with the... Takao?  It wasn't quite F-22/F-35s-doing-gun-runs-level-of-stupid like we've seen out of the Hollywood Godzilla movies but getting as close as it did was just... dumb.

But what made me pause the film for the evening was the death of the non-wife.  She pushed the protagonist to safety and stood in the blast... why?  Why didn't she... push both of them out of the way?  That bit of contrived drama/suffering just made me roll my eyes.

Since then I've tried going back to finish it but it hasn't gotten much better.  The protagonist has gone full emo and the introduction of the vunder-veapon fighter for the protagonist to fly but their inability to find ANYONE that would know how to fix it accept for the lone surviving mechanic from the opening is, again, just too forced.  Not even sure I'll finish it at this point.

I'm just scratching my head at how the ratings across the board are so high on RT.

ETA - Forgot the bit where Godzilla is walking down the road and all the civilians just keep running in front of him (and are eventually overtaken).  No one apparently thought to run... perpendicularly into areas he couldn't follow.  Again, felt contrived to have all these people running in the most opportunistic way for Godzilla to step on them.  (And before anyone mentions, yes, sometimes Godzilla took out a building to his side... but the main point is no one was out-running him so just staying in front was pure idiocy.  Running down allies and smaller streets to the side had potential, at least.)

I thought it was a very good movie. 

Some points I do agree with you.

But some points, I think it's just because you are a very logical thinker Humans aren't logical. If humans were, there wouldn't be so many problems in the world.

So for example, why the protagonist would feel guilty.. well he intended to do shoot the monster, and he was entrusted to do it. But he choked. If he decided on his own to not shoot, that's different than getting butterflies in the stomach and failing to do so. I think it reflects the fact that some real life kamikaze pilots were not the type of battle hardened soldiers with lots of training and such. Quite a number of late war recruits were of the non-war type personalities. There's lots of different kinds of people out there in the world with all sorts of complexes and whatnot. Besides, even though Godzilla in the early scene was ferocious, but its still an animal right? What animal is going to survive a burst in the head and neck by 20mm autocannons? They don't know its thee unrealistc Godzilla. 

I think another part is when the protagonist was saved by his non-wife. People are not very logical when freightened. They need to be trained in order to perform well. And more so with women than men (is it safe to say that). People get petrified when faced with an end. The action of doing anything like pushing him out was plenty much. So while dramas typically set up story lines like this, it was believable enough for me. I was vested in the in there story line. Getting the help with baby care from the veteran lady, the upgrades, to the house over time, when the non-wife got her new work outfit on and ready for go out, I thought it was all well done. And happy and the end that she survived. 

Other things.. the Takao was an awesome scene, and again, just an animal, even if big, one hit should be the end of it. The chase with dropping the mines was neat. The Shinden flying was also sweet.

Some points that I agree with you though.. I thought it was good, but I feel it was also up my alley. Various review scores were very generous, and I'm quite surprised at the degree of acclaim that it got. I'd give a 4 out of 5. If just a Godzilla movie ranking metric then 5 out of 5. I don't think it measures up as one of the greats in filming history that some scores may suggest.

One other point I agree with you was the apparantly no other mechanic that could be found to do the job in fixing the plane. There were few other bits like that but, meh, let's not get too serious over a Godzilla movie.

[Soren Ras]

6 hours ago, Yama said:

But not sure where they go from here. Dune Messiah concludes Paul's story just fine, but the conflict and antagonists in it are unremarkable.

My impression is that Frank Herbert wasn't ever really interested in Paul Atreides as a character. He was interested in what prescience would be like and what the consequences of having someone with that ability would mean for humanity. My sense of it is that with the massive success of the first book, the publisher started waving money at him to do more books, but Herbert didn't really know what to do with Paul. Which is why he basically gets sidelined early on so Herbert could focus on other things. But it has been a while since I touched the Dune Messiah book, so maybe I am misremembering.

 

Soren

[Stargrunt6]

4 hours ago, Soren Ras said:

My impression is that Frank Herbert wasn't ever really interested in Paul Atreides as a character. He was interested in what prescience would be like and what the consequences of having someone with that ability would mean for humanity. My sense of it is that with the massive success of the first book, the publisher started waving money at him to do more books, but Herbert didn't really know what to do with Paul. Which is why he basically gets sidelined early on so Herbert could focus on other things. But it has been a while since I touched the Dune Messiah book, so maybe I am misremembering.

 

Soren

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

[TrustMe]

39 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

I rather liked both Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune. I just wish that Frank Herbert had lived to make another book, Chapter House ended on a cliff hanger. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

53 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

Just wondering, how much detail do they go into about these fanatic lesbian warriors? 🤔

Asking for a friend...

[Soren Ras]

14 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

I rather liked both Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune. I just wish that Frank Herbert had lived to make another book, Chapter House ended on a cliff hanger. 

Me too. I loved the first book. Was disappointed in the 2nd and 3rd entries when I first read them, so I took a long break from the series at that point. After re-reading the first book some years later, I finally got around to God Emperor of Dune, and that was, er, something else. I didn't quite know what to make of it at the time, but eventually re-read it and could then enjoy it as a radical departure from the previous books both in plot and form. When I got around to the last two books more years had passed and I found I enjoyed them quite a bit, as there was a decent plot, interesting new characters, action sequences and in several ways a return to the old form. I would have loved a continuation of the Chapterhouse story.

 

Soren

[Ivanhoe]

Y'all are apparently too young to remember the drug culture of the 1970s. The later books would have been better had Herbert focused on Glenlivet rather than LSD. 

 

[Soren Ras]

2 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Y'all are apparently too young to remember the drug culture of the 1970s. The later books would have been better had Herbert focused on Glenlivet rather than LSD. 

 

LOL. God Emperor of Dune definitely had a certain LSD/mushroom vibe. The two last books were published in 1984 and 1985, and as noted, they are definitely less psychedelic. 

 

Soren

[Stuart Galbraith]

But PK Dick was consuming large amounts of drugs, and it didn't seem to affect his work I  any way. Maybe you can have functional tokers like you can have functioning alcoholics?

[Soren Ras]

I'd say both Dick and Herbert were quite high functioning stoners. I know Herbert did psilocybin and cultivated mushrooms for a time. 

I'll stick to whisky (and whiskey), but then again, I am hardly an award winning writer.

 

Soren

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, Soren Ras said:

Me too. I loved the first book. Was disappointed in the 2nd and 3rd entries when I first read them, so I took a long break from the series at that point. After re-reading the first book some years later, I finally got around to God Emperor of Dune, and that was, er, something else. I didn't quite know what to make of it at the time, but eventually re-read it and could then enjoy it as a radical departure from the previous books both in plot and form. When I got around to the last two books more years had passed and I found I enjoyed them quite a bit, as there was a decent plot, interesting new characters, action sequences and in several ways a return to the old form. I would have loved a continuation of the Chapterhouse story.

 

Soren

God Emperor of Dune was average I guess. But it debuted the Bene Tleilax face dancers and how Duncan Idaho who re-appear in a lot of the other books.

 

48 minutes ago, Soren Ras said:

I'd say both Dick and Herbert were quite high functioning stoners. I know Herbert did psilocybin and cultivated mushrooms for a time. 

I'll stick to whisky (and whiskey), but then again, I am hardly an award winning writer.

 

Soren

I drink Port myself  

Edited June 12, 2024 by TrustMe

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But PK Dick was consuming large amounts of drugs, and it didn't seem to affect his work I  any way. Maybe you can have functional tokers like you can have functioning alcoholics?

Drugs probably brought PKD closer to reality, not further. 

[Stargrunt6]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Just wondering, how much detail do they go into about these fanatic lesbian warriors? 🤔

Asking for a friend...

The Honored Matres. Homicidal Bene Gesserit off shoot that use sex to make men their slaves. You figured Herbert wasn't happily married. If he knew about Only Fans, he'd know women don't take much to make men their slaves.

22 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

God Emperor of Dune was average I guess. But it debuted the Bene Tleilax face dancers and how Duncan Idaho who re-appear in a lot of the other books.

 

 

I drink Port myself  

Nope, they debuted in Messiah woth Scytale.