Movies

[Ivanhoe]

[Skywalkre]

I will give the movie praise for one remarkable thing - what they accomplished with their budget.  I had heard the movie was made on the cheap and it just didn't look like it.  Then I looked up the budget and apparently it was only $12 million!  I probably won't finish the movie but I'd certainly be interested in watching something explain how they pulled off everything they did with so little money.

[urbanoid]

 

[Ivanhoe]

Amusing quip from FB;

"Isn't it amazing how the movie by David Lynch spawned a whole book series?"

 

[Yama]

On 6/11/2024 at 2:49 AM, Skywalkre said:

So... this is Vlleneuve trying to make more of a character where there wasn't one in the books.  That could explain a good bit.

Little bit yes, though not to same extent as with say, Arwen in Jackson's LotR movies.

It's been decades since I last read the books, but Chani was more passive character there. For example, she took it to the chin when Paul announced he wold marry Irulan.

Paul is basically product of manufactured Bene Gesserit prophecy which spiralled out of control and got life of its own. To fulfill the prophecy, he needs Chani to integrate with the Fremen, and to breed, obviously. I think Villeneuve does fairly good job showing that Paul uses others as tools, and he is ultimately one himself.

But not sure where they go from here. Dune Messiah concludes Paul's story just fine, but the conflict and antagonists in it are unremarkable.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Yama

[futon]

On 6/11/2024 at 8:59 AM, Skywalkre said:

Godzilla Minus One just came out on Netflix so I thought I'd give it a try.  I heard it had great reviews, and apparently is a 98%/98% on RT.

I made it through the first half of the movie just fine.  Having your protagonist be a kamikaze pilot who couldn't go through with his mission, and the resulting interaction with other military personnel who figured that out and later with citizens in Japan was an interesting arc to see (I'd actually love to know more about how often this happened and what life was like for said individuals).  The whole non-wife taking care of her non-child with this protagonist doing his part was also rather interesting.

But... the film, even early on, suffered from bad elements.  I had no sympathies for all the mechanics that died in the opening.  They died because one was an idiot and then several more followed up with even more idiotic actions.  I also don't buy that the protagonist should feel guilty about not firing with the guns from his plane... given how they represented Godzilla in that early part I doubt it would have done anything more than piss him off.

Then there was the scene with the... Takao?  It wasn't quite F-22/F-35s-doing-gun-runs-level-of-stupid like we've seen out of the Hollywood Godzilla movies but getting as close as it did was just... dumb.

But what made me pause the film for the evening was the death of the non-wife.  She pushed the protagonist to safety and stood in the blast... why?  Why didn't she... push both of them out of the way?  That bit of contrived drama/suffering just made me roll my eyes.

Since then I've tried going back to finish it but it hasn't gotten much better.  The protagonist has gone full emo and the introduction of the vunder-veapon fighter for the protagonist to fly but their inability to find ANYONE that would know how to fix it accept for the lone surviving mechanic from the opening is, again, just too forced.  Not even sure I'll finish it at this point.

I'm just scratching my head at how the ratings across the board are so high on RT.

ETA - Forgot the bit where Godzilla is walking down the road and all the civilians just keep running in front of him (and are eventually overtaken).  No one apparently thought to run... perpendicularly into areas he couldn't follow.  Again, felt contrived to have all these people running in the most opportunistic way for Godzilla to step on them.  (And before anyone mentions, yes, sometimes Godzilla took out a building to his side... but the main point is no one was out-running him so just staying in front was pure idiocy.  Running down allies and smaller streets to the side had potential, at least.)

I thought it was a very good movie. 

Some points I do agree with you.

But some points, I think it's just because you are a very logical thinker Humans aren't logical. If humans were, there wouldn't be so many problems in the world.

So for example, why the protagonist would feel guilty.. well he intended to do shoot the monster, and he was entrusted to do it. But he choked. If he decided on his own to not shoot, that's different than getting butterflies in the stomach and failing to do so. I think it reflects the fact that some real life kamikaze pilots were not the type of battle hardened soldiers with lots of training and such. Quite a number of late war recruits were of the non-war type personalities. There's lots of different kinds of people out there in the world with all sorts of complexes and whatnot. Besides, even though Godzilla in the early scene was ferocious, but its still an animal right? What animal is going to survive a burst in the head and neck by 20mm autocannons? They don't know its thee unrealistc Godzilla. 

I think another part is when the protagonist was saved by his non-wife. People are not very logical when freightened. They need to be trained in order to perform well. And more so with women than men (is it safe to say that). People get petrified when faced with an end. The action of doing anything like pushing him out was plenty much. So while dramas typically set up story lines like this, it was believable enough for me. I was vested in the in there story line. Getting the help with baby care from the veteran lady, the upgrades, to the house over time, when the non-wife got her new work outfit on and ready for go out, I thought it was all well done. And happy and the end that she survived. 

Other things.. the Takao was an awesome scene, and again, just an animal, even if big, one hit should be the end of it. The chase with dropping the mines was neat. The Shinden flying was also sweet.

Some points that I agree with you though.. I thought it was good, but I feel it was also up my alley. Various review scores were very generous, and I'm quite surprised at the degree of acclaim that it got. I'd give a 4 out of 5. If just a Godzilla movie ranking metric then 5 out of 5. I don't think it measures up as one of the greats in filming history that some scores may suggest.

One other point I agree with you was the apparantly no other mechanic that could be found to do the job in fixing the plane. There were few other bits like that but, meh, let's not get too serious over a Godzilla movie.

[Soren Ras]

6 hours ago, Yama said:

But not sure where they go from here. Dune Messiah concludes Paul's story just fine, but the conflict and antagonists in it are unremarkable.

My impression is that Frank Herbert wasn't ever really interested in Paul Atreides as a character. He was interested in what prescience would be like and what the consequences of having someone with that ability would mean for humanity. My sense of it is that with the massive success of the first book, the publisher started waving money at him to do more books, but Herbert didn't really know what to do with Paul. Which is why he basically gets sidelined early on so Herbert could focus on other things. But it has been a while since I touched the Dune Messiah book, so maybe I am misremembering.

 

Soren

[Stargrunt6]

4 hours ago, Soren Ras said:

My impression is that Frank Herbert wasn't ever really interested in Paul Atreides as a character. He was interested in what prescience would be like and what the consequences of having someone with that ability would mean for humanity. My sense of it is that with the massive success of the first book, the publisher started waving money at him to do more books, but Herbert didn't really know what to do with Paul. Which is why he basically gets sidelined early on so Herbert could focus on other things. But it has been a while since I touched the Dune Messiah book, so maybe I am misremembering.

 

Soren

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

[TrustMe]

39 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

I rather liked both Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune. I just wish that Frank Herbert had lived to make another book, Chapter House ended on a cliff hanger. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

53 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

You ain't wrong.

There were no interesting villains in the 2nd book. Scytale was just confusing.  

The books later in the series really seem like that he was running out of ideas. 

He even dragged the Baron back out in the 3rd book ("Somehow... Palpatine has returned).

The books got really Heinlein-esque, complete solipsism.

I think a better idea would be Feyd's bastard son come back and lead a rebellion against Paul's empire. But alas no, we get Man-worms, fanatic lesbian warriors and dogs that serve as chairs.

 

Just wondering, how much detail do they go into about these fanatic lesbian warriors? 🤔

Asking for a friend...

[Soren Ras]

14 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

I rather liked both Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune. I just wish that Frank Herbert had lived to make another book, Chapter House ended on a cliff hanger. 

Me too. I loved the first book. Was disappointed in the 2nd and 3rd entries when I first read them, so I took a long break from the series at that point. After re-reading the first book some years later, I finally got around to God Emperor of Dune, and that was, er, something else. I didn't quite know what to make of it at the time, but eventually re-read it and could then enjoy it as a radical departure from the previous books both in plot and form. When I got around to the last two books more years had passed and I found I enjoyed them quite a bit, as there was a decent plot, interesting new characters, action sequences and in several ways a return to the old form. I would have loved a continuation of the Chapterhouse story.

 

Soren

[Ivanhoe]

Y'all are apparently too young to remember the drug culture of the 1970s. The later books would have been better had Herbert focused on Glenlivet rather than LSD. 

 

[Soren Ras]

2 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Y'all are apparently too young to remember the drug culture of the 1970s. The later books would have been better had Herbert focused on Glenlivet rather than LSD. 

 

LOL. God Emperor of Dune definitely had a certain LSD/mushroom vibe. The two last books were published in 1984 and 1985, and as noted, they are definitely less psychedelic. 

 

Soren

[Stuart Galbraith]

But PK Dick was consuming large amounts of drugs, and it didn't seem to affect his work I  any way. Maybe you can have functional tokers like you can have functioning alcoholics?

[Soren Ras]

I'd say both Dick and Herbert were quite high functioning stoners. I know Herbert did psilocybin and cultivated mushrooms for a time. 

I'll stick to whisky (and whiskey), but then again, I am hardly an award winning writer.

 

Soren

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, Soren Ras said:

Me too. I loved the first book. Was disappointed in the 2nd and 3rd entries when I first read them, so I took a long break from the series at that point. After re-reading the first book some years later, I finally got around to God Emperor of Dune, and that was, er, something else. I didn't quite know what to make of it at the time, but eventually re-read it and could then enjoy it as a radical departure from the previous books both in plot and form. When I got around to the last two books more years had passed and I found I enjoyed them quite a bit, as there was a decent plot, interesting new characters, action sequences and in several ways a return to the old form. I would have loved a continuation of the Chapterhouse story.

 

Soren

God Emperor of Dune was average I guess. But it debuted the Bene Tleilax face dancers and how Duncan Idaho who re-appear in a lot of the other books.

 

48 minutes ago, Soren Ras said:

I'd say both Dick and Herbert were quite high functioning stoners. I know Herbert did psilocybin and cultivated mushrooms for a time. 

I'll stick to whisky (and whiskey), but then again, I am hardly an award winning writer.

 

Soren

I drink Port myself  

Edited June 12, 2024 by TrustMe

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But PK Dick was consuming large amounts of drugs, and it didn't seem to affect his work I  any way. Maybe you can have functional tokers like you can have functioning alcoholics?

Drugs probably brought PKD closer to reality, not further. 

[Stargrunt6]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Just wondering, how much detail do they go into about these fanatic lesbian warriors? 🤔

Asking for a friend...

The Honored Matres. Homicidal Bene Gesserit off shoot that use sex to make men their slaves. You figured Herbert wasn't happily married. If he knew about Only Fans, he'd know women don't take much to make men their slaves.

22 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

God Emperor of Dune was average I guess. But it debuted the Bene Tleilax face dancers and how Duncan Idaho who re-appear in a lot of the other books.

 

 

I drink Port myself  

Nope, they debuted in Messiah woth Scytale.

[TrustMe]

13 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

The Honored Matres. Homicidal Bene Gesserit off shoot that use sex to make men their slaves. You figured Herbert wasn't happily married. If he knew about Only Fans, he'd know women don't take much to make men their slaves.

 

LOL

 

14 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

Nope, they debuted in Messiah woth Scytale.

You're right, my mistake.

[Ssnake]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But PK Dick was consuming large amounts of drugs, and it didn't seem to affect his work I  any way.

Surely you're jesting!

First of all, he was a consumer of amphetamines (less destructive than meth), primarily to boost his output. And if you check how many stories and novels he wrote during his middle career, there is your hint that he was on speed right away.

Mid and end-career books are ripe with a pervasive atmosphere of paranoia. Guess what's a side effect of amphetamine consumption. Likewise, he fell off the productivity cliff which can also be easily ascribed to the effects of prolonged and intense consumption of the stuff.

Ironically, reflecting on someone who wrote The Man in the High Castle, this mirrors the phases of Hitler's drug career.

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

Drugs probably brought PKD closer to reality, not further. 

For a while maybe, then not so much.

[Ivanhoe]

Speaking of which, a recent research piece came out showing association between long-term heavy THC use and psychosis.

Makes me wonder how many in the creative arts arena are going to have problems in later life.

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Surely you're jesting!

First of all, he was a consumer of amphetamines (less destructive than meth), primarily to boost his output. And if you check how many stories and novels he wrote during his middle career, there is your hint that he was on speed right away.

Mid and end-career books are ripe with a pervasive atmosphere of paranoia. Guess what's a side effect of amphetamine consumption. Likewise, he fell off the productivity cliff which can also be easily ascribed to the effects of prolonged and intense consumption of the stuff.

Ironically, reflecting on someone who wrote The Man in the High Castle, this mirrors the phases of Hitler's drug career.

I should have expressed that clearer. I didnt mean it affected his work in a negative way.

Yes, they are obviously twisted out of shape because of another worldy perspective by being off his head on drugs. But that doesnt make them unreadable, arguably its at least part of the strength of his writing. A scanner darkly is a clear example of this. That clearly took an altered state, or an inate familiarity with it, to write something like that.

I was interested reading The Man in the High Castle on his perspective on the difference between the Nazi and Japanese regimes. The Japanese would probably have turned into an Empire much like the European ones, exploitative as all Empires are, but for the most part benigh and happy to enjoy its preeminent position. The Nazi's by contrast would have carried on looking for people that were not them and keep killing, because Nazi's gonna Nazi. Id never considered that perspective before, and the more I think about it, the more I think he was probably right. Not only was that first rate research on his part, I think it must have been his ability to disengage through drugs that helped him to see it.

[Ssnake]

59 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I didnt mean it affected his work in a negative way.

We will never know the quality of books he would have written without substance abuse - but I will concede that what he wrote was very good. Despite or because of being under the influence - who could say?

[Stuart Galbraith]

21 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

We will never know the quality of books he would have written without substance abuse - but I will concede that what he wrote was very good. Despite or because of being under the influence - who could say?

Im reminded of Samuel Taylor Coleridge whom wrote poem 'Kubla Khan' whilst, IIRC, whilst asleep in a stupour after taking opium. Which would have worked out wonderfully, if the infamous 'Man from Porlock' hadnt come knocking and kept Coleridge occupied, before he could get the rest of the thing down on paper.

Or alternatively, if you are Douglas Adams, it was an infinitely prolonged time traveller trying to change the future course of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubla_Khan

There is a lot in Dick's work I think indicates a different perspective from other writers. I think he would probably have been a capable, if middle of the road science fiction writer, had he never taken drugs. I think there is a lot of evidence, probably uncomfortable evidence, that suggets drugs certainly does unlock a lot of creativity in the human mind, whether its Music (Looking at you Sid Barrett, Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton) Science Fiction or perhaps even theatre. I dont think someone whom came up with the Rite of Spring wasnt indulging heavily in something from the orient.

I think for me, the thing I find most interesting, is that he doesnt believe in fixed history. In MITHC, he talks about 'here is the lighter in Roosevelts jacket the day he was assassinated. Or was it this one?'. His view is that history is purely down to perspective, there was no inherent fixedness to it. And that, to me, was an idea that is astonishing modern, and very current in Social media. Hitler was a Socialist, Churchill was a fascist, etc etc etc.

I think you can see simlar hints to that end in what little ive read of JG Ballards work, that there is no truth, just alternative perspective. And Ballard was a large consumer of drugs at one time as well, IIRC.

 

Its surprising perhaps how little this seems to happen in the movie industry these days Ok, you get actors heavily into drugs, but few directors or scriptwriters are incredibly rare. Or maybe, we just dont know about them.