Movies

[Ivanhoe]

You seem to be conflating "one" with "all."

 

[Skywalkre]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:28 PM, Stargrunt6 said:

Villeneuve really did the impossible with this one.  As a lifelong fan of the novel, I'm overall floored.

 

(Although I have a few glaring criticisms...)

I think this is one of those moments where not having read the book may add to the enjoyment.  The 80s version of the movie scarred me as a kid and I wouldn't touch the actual book even if someone offered to pay me.  V's first film really is a masterpiece (and everything I'm hearing part 2 will continue it) and knowing less of the source material may be more in this context.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I didnt hate the original film. Yes, there is some truly naff moments in it. But it looks beautiful, and although the acting was uneven, it rattles along quite pleasingly. Im even able to forgive Sting being in it.

So about 5 years ago I read the book. And yes, its much better. But I was impressed quite how much they managed to shoehorn into the original film.

So basically, im going to have to see this. Chalamet was pretty good in the Henry V film, even though it was rather uneven.

[Ssnake]

Well, Lynch had to cram the whole first book of a really complex world and backstory into a single film that wasn't supposed to exceed 180 minutes runtime. So, clearly, some things had to give, and a lot of things are "assumed knowledge" for the audience in order for the Lynch film to fully make sense.

And then of course, there are the Lynch things in it, though I thought that his rendition of the orange smoke filled travel terrariums for the navigators wasn't such a bad idea. But, it clearly was a hit and miss adaptation of a book that simply required twice as much runtime, which is what the studio behind Villeneuve is willing to invest into a new science-fiction franchise with the potential to branch out just like the Star Wars universe - just for adults rather than a kids' show.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, the Lynch adapation would have worked better with twice the time.

There was an interesting unfilmed Dune adapation from the 1970's, which if nothing else seems to have deeply influenced the Lynch adaption.

Thing is, with the advances in AI, I wouldnt put money on someone not making this one day.

[DB]

As a huge fan of the "original trilogy" of Dune books, I found the Lynch movie to be about as good as it could possibly have been given the duration constraint and the effects limitations. However, I can't comparatively judge the new movie as I haven't seen it yet.

Haters will be haters, though, and people who saw the Lynch movie without the back story were never going to "get it".

[Stuart Galbraith]

I viewed it about the same as Bladerunner, a flawed masterpiece (ok, maybe not some of the acting but still...). The difference beingRidley Scott went back and fixed most of the worst glitches in Bladerunner, but Lynch never saw the need to go back.

Still beautiful to look at in any case.

[sunday]

33 minutes ago, DB said:

As a huge fan of the "original trilogy" of Dune books, I found the Lynch movie to be about as good as it could possibly have been given the duration constraint and the effects limitations. However, I can't comparatively judge the new movie as I haven't seen it yet.

Haters will be haters, though, and people who saw the Lynch movie without the back story were never going to "get it".

Did you watch that miniseries with James McAvoy playing Leto II?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/

[Ssnake]

Bladerunner was fixable in the sense that with minor modifications of runtime and a rearrangement of a few cuts you could undo most of the producers' ham fisted meddling at the eleventh hour (even then, the differences between Director's and Final cut proved that Scott wasn't quite the genius who had always known what he was doing, held back by incompetent studio bureaucrats - but that he needed more than one attempt to nail it (still, he did in the end)).

Lynch's Dune was unfixable. It would have required two more hours of raw film that simply wasn't there, and a mere rearranging of the scenes wouldn't have filled those Texas Extra Large sized gaps in the story. Lynch's Dune wasn't a complete stinker if you knew the backstory; it was more like torture in these sense that you could feel what kind of potential it could have had under more favorable conditions.

I also don't think that Villeneuve would have gotten the go-ahead if the studio officials hadn't recognized the untapped potential of the Lynch version. In that sense Villeneuve owes to Lynch the demonstration that it simply couldn't be done in three hours.

 

And yes, the Jodorowski version was the most influential science-fiction/fantasy movie never made insofar as it created the formula of what was needed for the highest production value - a team of renowned artists to be hired to design the entire world/universe of a film, not just a select few propes and sets as was the norm up to this point.

Lynch's Dune followed that formula, so did Alien, Aliens, the original Stargate film, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, basically any major AAA title that isn't shot in our present world, or some historical setting.

That Jodorowski never got to shoot a single scene is probably merciful because we never got to see the discrepancy between grandiose ambition and mediocre execution.

[DB]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

Did you watch that miniseries with James McAvoy playing Leto II?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/

No, but from what I've seen of the visuals, it would make me cringe.

[Ssnake]

You could sense that the team knew their source material and tried their best. But they simply had insufficient funding (as was typical for TV productions at that time). Dune asks for grandiose visuals, and I suppose had there been an Amazon Prime willing to shell out half a billion like they did for Middle Earth, (and had there been no woke agenda tied to it) it might have become a truly great production.

So, it was kinda complementary to Lynch's Dune. Where Lynch was short on plot, the TV series delivered. Where Lynch produced epic cinematics, the TV series delivered, well, TV visuals. The TV show's script with Lynch's images could have been worth watching. In a way that's now what Villeneuve promises to deliver.

[Stargrunt6]

Yep agree with the above about the mini series.  John Hurt, btw, puts on an absolutely sleepy performance.  The costuming was done by Jean Paul Gautier, and it looked surprisingly goofy and cheap.  It's one reason it got called "the silly hat version."

The casting for many of the characters, especially  Feyd, Gurney and the Baron is superb.  The last one was the herald in HBO's Rome and he really stands out.  The Harkonnens really matched the book.

One thing that does not get talked about are the soundtracks. Here's my take.

1. Lynch's Dune has an iconic and grandeur sound.   An added bonus by Brian Eno's "Prophecy Theme," adds a mystical sound that is perfect to meditate or go to sleep to.  On the album, the deeply romantic and triumphant end theme used in the movie is nowhere to be found unfortunately,  barring audio grabs from the movie. 

2.  The mini-series soundtrack is huge and has some decent themes, particularly the main theme, but lots of filler tracks.

3. The new Dune has a great soundtrack,  but the screaming woman is a mixed bag.  It captures both the mysticism and sense of sweeping history that the book conveys.

For a great review of the new movie, check the video below.  I love it and many of the criticisms land, in spite of my opinion that Villeneuve's is the best rendition.

 

Also I am so glad Jodorowsky's never got off the ground. It would have turned off so many people from the book. Meanwhile, DV's actually created new fans and is merching like mad.

 

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Stargrunt6 said:

...The costuming was done by Jean Paul Gautier, and it looked surprisingly goofy and cheap...

He was seen as "The SF costumer" after "Fifth Element" in 1997. But what worked for weird comic book esthetics of FE did not work for Dune.

Quote

...Jodorowsky...

I am still waiting for someone to try to tackle Metabarons.

Edited June 7, 2023 by bojan

[Stargrunt6]

6 minutes ago, bojan said:

He was seen as "The SF costumer" after "Fifth Element" in 1997. But what worked for weird comic book esthetics did not work for Dune.

 

Here's what I liked about DV's approach: He made Dune easy to understand. Dune is already a little weird, there is no point in making it even more odd.  Everyone wants to make it a peyote-fuelled fever dream of an hallucination.  Any real fan knows it was just mildly fuled with hallucinogenics. 

 

[Sardaukar]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3291150/

Expend4bles should be fun. Couple of good martial arts movie guys in it too, Tony Jaa and Iko Uwais. 

Especially latter actor's films are quite...gory...

[Stefan Fredriksson]

On 5/30/2023 at 5:31 PM, Stefan Fredriksson said:

Extraction 2 coming soon. 👍

So, I watched it and was unimpressed. Rewatched the first film to see if I remembered that one better than it was. I hadn't, 1 is way better than 2. Today, on a scale for this type of movies, I would say 1 is about 8-9/10, while 2 is more like 4-5/10.

In the first film I actually cared for the characters, and it felt more grounded/realistic (for being over the top). When they made second film, it felt like "Only one downed helicopter in first movie, that means we need at least three in this one." In first film the bad guys were at least a bit nuanced, in no. 2 they scrapped that and went all in on evil Georgians with no nuance. Film-makers reasoned that more explosions = better movie. I disagree.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Stefan Fredriksson

[Skywalkre]

On 6/28/2023 at 5:17 AM, Stefan Fredriksson said:

So, I watched it and was unimpressed. Rewatched the first film to see if I remembered that one better than it was. I hadn't, 1 is way better than 2. Today, on a scale for this type of movies, I would say 1 is about 8-9/10, while 2 is more like 4-5/10.

In the first film I actually cared for the characters, and it felt more grounded/realistic (for being over the top). When they made second film, it felt like "Only one downed helicopter in first movie, that means we need at least three in this one." In first film the bad guys were at least a bit nuanced, in no. 2 they scrapped that and went all in on evil Georgians with no nuance. Film-makers reasoned that more explosions = better movie. I disagree.

I couldn't finish 1.  The action scenes were amazing to watch and superbly shot... but the level of punishment Hemsworth's character took while still continuing the fight was... too much.  Maybe it's because I'm getting older and finally starting to feel some limitations myself... but I have a lot more respect for film that depicts a heroic yet more realistic take on physical capabilities of our heroes.  If I want to watch demigods save the day... I'll go rewatch Avengers: Endgame.  😜

[Skywalkre]

Saw some recent stories that make me shake my head about where Star Wars is as an IP.

The first is that the latest talk of future Star Wars movies is apparently centering around Rey coming back and starting a new Jedi Order (in short, they're going to give her the movies Luke should have had with this recent trilogy).  First off, when this was announced, who the hell is so delusional to think Rey is a beloved character worthy of spending several hundred million dollars around in these new movies?  The levels of disconnect with reality at LucasFilm is worse than some of our 'stolen election' crowd here on TN.

Another article I saw related to the above mentioned Katherine Kennedy (how the hell is she still in charge?) talking about how they were going to deviate from Lucas' original vision of Star Wars.  That's not terrifying to read at all.  In fairness Lucas wasn't this visionary and the OT was good in large part because he was surrounded by folks who were willing to challenge him if not completely fix his screw-ups.  With that being said... the foundation of the OT was a solid one and to talk of veering away from that just seems... like supreme arrogance (which fits Kennedy).

The last article I saw was titled 'Star Wars is Dead' and it centered on a recent series of books that was heavily publicized and released meant to expand the lore of Star Wars.  These books have bombed... badly.  They're just not selling at all.  The article mentioned the Zahn series from back in the 90s was far more successful (I remember that series and I'd argue it was just... ok at best).

In short, if this new movie around Rey actually gets released (that's a big if... I've lost track of the number of Star Wars movies that have been announced and then canned sine Solo bombed) I could see a situation similar to what we're currently seeing with the Flash - a movie gets hyped up by fanboys, being called the best release of its type in the genre, only to actually hit the theaters and bomb so hard it's the nail in the coffin.

As much as I have loved Star Wars (and it was a major part of my youth)... I would be totally ok with it bombing so hard they just give up and let the IP die.  In fact, with what they're doing to the IP these days, I think I'd prefer that.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Stefan Fredriksson]

I fully agree on Helmsworth keeps going after taking too much damage in both films. But at least In Extraction 1 he pops pills and drinks alcohol to keep going. In E2 he goes from dead to 110% in 6 weeks just doing a Rocky-workout. 🙃

[WRW]

15 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I couldn't finish 1.  The action scenes were amazing to watch and superbly shot... but the level of punishment Hemsworth's character took while still continuing the fight was... too much.  Maybe it's because I'm getting older and finally starting to feel some limitations myself... but I have a lot more respect for film that depicts a heroic yet more realistic take on physical capabilities of our heroes.  If I want to watch demigods save the day... I'll go rewatch Avengers: Endgame.  😜

Watched both a few days ago . A cross between Taken and John Wick with a hint of Hindi action scenes.  Enjoyed them. The body armour and training of Dhaka police was a tad high quality though.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the Zahn series ignited a fair amount of enthusiasm at a time when Star Wars wasn't doing much at all.  The ending of the third and final book was inexplicable though.  It was if they ran out of pages and just said end it however.

Like so many things, Star Wars was a point in time.  You can't really bottle lightning and save it for later.  The story touched on enough tenets of civilization to work on all levels.  It managed to be funny and exciting at the same time.  Some stories need to be told and then be done with them.  If you want to "continue" the story then you'd best be very judicious about it.

It also had the virtue of being new and fresh at the time.  What we get now only works when it is carefully packaged into what worked then.

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

the Zahn series ignited a fair amount of enthusiasm at a time when Star Wars wasn't doing much at all.  The ending of the third and final book was inexplicable though.  It was if they ran out of pages and just said end it however.

Like so many things, Star Wars was a point in time.  You can't really bottle lightning and save it for later.  The story touched on enough tenets of civilization to work on all levels.  It managed to be funny and exciting at the same time.  Some stories need to be told and then be done with them.  If you want to "continue" the story then you'd best be very judicious about it.

It also had the virtue of being new and fresh at the time.  What we get now only works when it is carefully packaged into what worked then.

I didn't like the Zahn books. I have several of his (non-SW) books and there all from bad to average. The Cobra and Conquer trilogy's for example.

 

 

[Skywalkre]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:01 AM, TrustMe said:

I didn't like the Zahn books. I have several of his (non-SW) books and there all from bad to average. The Cobra and Conquer trilogy's for example.

I didn't care for them, either.  Even as a diehard Star Wars fan at the time desperate to get anything Star Wars into my hands I was left going 'ugh...'.  I think that helps reinforce the point the original article I was referencing was making - Star Wars is dead and you know it's dead when decent material being put out has most folks going 'no thanks'.

[Skywalkre]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:49 AM, Tim the Tank Nut said:

the Zahn series ignited a fair amount of enthusiasm at a time when Star Wars wasn't doing much at all.  The ending of the third and final book was inexplicable though.  It was if they ran out of pages and just said end it however.

Like so many things, Star Wars was a point in time.  You can't really bottle lightning and save it for later.  The story touched on enough tenets of civilization to work on all levels.  It managed to be funny and exciting at the same time.  Some stories need to be told and then be done with them.  If you want to "continue" the story then you'd best be very judicious about it.

It also had the virtue of being new and fresh at the time.  What we get now only works when it is carefully packaged into what worked then.

Right... Star Wars was never going to stay at its pinnacle forever.

With that being said how they've handled it (and not just Kennedy, Lucas as well going back to the prequels) over the last 2+ decades has shown there is definitely a wrong way to handle an IP.  Treating it with respect... being able to see it beyond the few tropes in the OT... they could have released decent content for years to come til it slowly faded away with dignity.  I think a modern example that is falling out of favor much quicker is what's happening with the Witcher.  Cavill had a simple rule and I think it's a good one - treat the original source material with respect.  When you don't... fans bail (and rightfully so).

[Skywalkre]

Also, how has no one posted this yet?  😆

This looks absolutely amazing.  (I'm torn because I think it shows too much... but I love every second of it all the same.)