Civil War flag found

[Michael Eastes]

Officials think SC Civil War flag found in Iowa

Associated Press

October 02, 2009

 

CHARLESTON, S.C. - Researchers seem to have solved the mystery of what happened to the “Big Red” flag flown by Citadel cadets when they fired on a ship trying to resupply Fort Sumter three months before the Civil War.

 

The Post and Courier of Charleston reports a 10-by-7-foot flag with a large white Palmetto tree and a white crescent on a red field has been located in storage at an Iowa museum.

 

Researchers think it is the same flag that flew over Morris Island when cadets fired on the supply ship Star of the West, forcing the ship to turn away, in January of 1861.

 

The Civil War began that April with a Confederate bombardment of Union-held Sumter in Charleston Harbor.

 

The Citadel adopted a replica of the red flag as a spirit flag almost 20 years ago. But it was unclear what happened to the original.

 

A woman, who was not identified, posted information on the flag on the Internet two years ago. The Citadel Historical Council began researching and it led to the discovery of the flag at the State Historical Society of Iowa is Des Moines.

 

Council chairman Tex Curtis, a 1964 graduate of the state military college, calls the flag “a priceless historic artifact. It literally is The Citadel. It goes right to the beginning.”

 

The school is discussing bringing the flag back to Charleston from the Iowa museum on a long-term loan.

 

Michael O. Smith, director of the Iowa museum, said the flag was donated by a Union Civil War veteran, Willard Baker, in 1919. Baker said he got the flag in Mobile, Ala.

 

Researchers think the flag was taken from Charleston to Mobile by Confederate Capt. James F. Culpepper, an 1854 Citadel graduate, and fell into Baker’s hands when Union troops captured Fort Blakeley near Mobile in April 1865. Both Culpepper and Baker fought in that battle.

 

Smith said the flag has been in storage since 1919. He said officials knew it was from South Carolina because of the palmetto, the state symbol, but did not know the flag’s significance.

[Paul in Qatar]

It ought to go to the Pentagon (or really Carlisle Barracks) where all other captured colors go. If we want to display it, fine, but to return it seems to fly in the face of common sense.

[BP]

This has given all the Citadel grads around town the vapors. "We want our flag back now!" Well, when your mouth writes checks your ass can't cash, you don't get a say in what happens to your battle flags. (Not a huge Citadel fan.)

[Rocky Davis]

It ought to go to the Pentagon (or really Carlisle Barracks) where all other captured colors go. If we want to display it, fine, but to return it seems to fly in the face of common sense.

 

Common sense says return it to the Citadel. After all, captured art (by US soldiers) from Germany during WWII has been returned to Germany as it has been discovered here in the US.

[Paul in Qatar]

Some art has, some has not. Stuff with Nazi themes are kept by the US.

 

But colors are different. They are very rarely returned. We retain British colors captured in 1814 and during the Revolution. We retain German colors. (The French in 1940 burned German colors going back to God knows when in 1940 to prevent losing them.)

[Richard Lindquist]

A slim boook called "The Young Lions" by James Lee Conrad gives a pretty good treatment of the various Cadet Corps of the multitude of southern military schools in support of the CSA in active military operations. Though their primary contribution was as a source of junior officers and NCOs to the raw CSA military units, all of the various cadet corps did serve as organized units in support of CSA operations.

[Rocky Davis]

Some art has, some has not. Stuff with Nazi themes are kept by the US.

 

But colors are different. They are very rarely returned. We retain British colors captured in 1814 and during the Revolution. We retain German colors. (The French in 1940 burned German colors going back to God knows when in 1940 to prevent losing them.)

 

Well, supposedly being that all you mention are non-US entitites and the denizens of the Confederacy are now US citizens, and the Citadel is located on US soil, it would be right and just to return it to the Citadel. I mean, it's not like returning the Union Jack to Sandhurst . . . aren't we supposed to all be on the same team now . . . or not?

[Mikel2]

So when is the US going to return to Spain the flag of the Cristobal Colon, captured in 1898 and now at Annapolis?

 

Very interesting find.

[George Newbill]

To war! Damn Yankees holding priceless Confederate heirlooms.

[FlyingCanOpener]

To war! Damn Yankees holding priceless Confederate heirlooms.

 

Anyone else shocked by this post?

 

One of my colleague's son just bailed on The Citadel after two weeks. Had a 4-year scholarship and all.

Edited October 13, 2009 by FlyingCanOpener

[Michael Eastes]

One of my colleague's son just bailed on The Citadel after two weeks. Had a 4-year scholarship and all.

 

Schools like that are not for lightweights. Let's face it, not everyone can ( or should ) live the military lifestyle.

 

It's a pity that the scholarship was wasted. Some other kid, who was passed over ,probably would have loved it.

[Richard Lindquist]

Anyone else shocked by this post?

 

 

When you fart, does the sound surprise you?

[John_Ford]

Spoils of war. Would be nice to get it back but it is a part of history. Star of the West used to be a big day for the Citadel and Charleston but it seems to have fallen by the wayside. Would be nice to see it though.

[Colin Williams]

This should be settled the American way. Hold an annual football game between the Citadel and an equivalent Iowa school for the right to possess and display the flag.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Common sense says return it to the Citadel. After all, captured art (by US soldiers) from Germany during WWII has been returned to Germany as it has been discovered here in the US.

 

Rock, the difference being that art was not covered by regs as captured enemy equipment, even though plenty was looted with winks and nods. Enemy equipment such as flags, banners, insignia, sidearms, and harkening back to another related thread- swords-have been considered war booty.

 

Here is the current USC dealing with War souvenirs:

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_s...79----000-.html

[sunday]

So when is the US going to return to Spain the flag of the Cristobal Colon, captured in 1898 and now at Annapolis?

 

Very interesting find.

 

Then, we'll had to return to Russia all the flags of the Soviet merchantmen taken as prizes during the Spanish Civil War, currently decorating Madrids' Museo Naval.

 

No thanks!

Edited October 16, 2009 by sunday

[Rocky Davis]

Rock, the difference being that art was not covered by regs as captured enemy equipment, even though plenty was looted with winks and nods. Enemy equipment such as flags, banners, insignia, sidearms, and harkening back to another related thread- swords-have been considered war booty.

 

Here is the current USC dealing with War souvenirs:

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_s...79----000-.html

 

OK . . . so was the flag taken while in conflict or stolen while looting? I'm not sure how it got to where it is now, because marauding soldiers burned, destroyed and pillaged (as we all know happened).

[Paul in Qatar]

Just by the way, can someone post what the thing looks like?

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

OK . . . so was the flag taken while in conflict or stolen while looting? I'm not sure how it got to where it is now, because marauding soldiers burned, destroyed and pillaged (as we all know happened).

 

 

 

From the topic header:

 

"Researchers think the flag was taken from Charleston to Mobile by Confederate Capt. James F. Culpepper, an 1854 Citadel graduate, and fell into Baker’s hands when Union troops captured Fort Blakeley near Mobile in April 1865. Both Culpepper and Baker fought in that battle."

 

 

If true, then it was obviously taken during operations to clear Ft Blakeley. While CW isn't my specialty, I do know that during/immediately after WWII, enemy military equipment was fair game, whether taken on the battlefield or in a private residence. In fact, in both theaters, flags, daggers, swords, guns (both military and civilian) were ordered to be turned in by military authorities for distribution to US troops as war souvenirs.

 

You wouldn't believe some of the things brought back as war trophies. I remember being at a collectors show in the late 1980's when a guy brought in a stunning silk banner with Japanese writing all over it. He'd bought it from a 1st CAV vet who was on the initial occupation of the Japanese mainland. The vet told him it came out of the Imperial Japanese Army HQ in Tokyo. Turned out that it was a End Of the Year Sale advertisement for a Tokyo department store.

[SCFalken]

It should go to Carlisle Barracks. The CSA no longer exists, and has no successor state (unlike Nazi Germany).

 

 

Falken

[Rocky Davis]

From the topic header:

 

"Researchers think the flag was taken from Charleston to Mobile by Confederate Capt. James F. Culpepper, an 1854 Citadel graduate, and fell into Baker’s hands when Union troops captured Fort Blakeley near Mobile in April 1865. Both Culpepper and Baker fought in that battle."

 

If true, then it was obviously taken during operations to clear Ft Blakeley. While CW isn't my specialty, I do know that during/immediately after WWII, enemy military equipment was fair game, whether taken on the battlefield or in a private residence. In fact, in both theaters, flags, daggers, swords, guns (both military and civilian) were ordered to be turned in by military authorities for distribution to US troops as war souvenirs.

 

You wouldn't believe some of the things brought back as war trophies. I remember being at a collectors show in the late 1980's when a guy brought in a stunning silk banner with Japanese writing all over it. He'd bought it from a 1st CAV vet who was on the initial occupation of the Japanese mainland. The vet told him it came out of the Imperial Japanese Army HQ in Tokyo. Turned out that it was a End Of the Year Sale advertisement for a Tokyo department store.

 

Yes, I am aware of the quote in the topic header. But, when they use the term "researchers think," then they really are not sure about what actually happened.

 

I would think that, in an act of good faith and kindness, the holders of the flag would give it back to the original owner (the Citadel). Of course, with possession being 9/10ths of the law, they don't legally have to do that.

[BP]

This should be settled the American way. Hold an annual football game between the Citadel and an equivalent Iowa school for the right to possess and display the flag.

 

What decent Iowa high school can afford to have its student athletes travel all the way down here to play the Bulldogs?

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Yes, I am aware of the quote in the topic header. But, when they use the term "researchers think," then they really are not sure about what actually happened.

 

I would think that, in an act of good faith and kindness, the holders of the flag would give it back to the original owner (the Citadel). Of course, with possession being 9/10ths of the law, they don't legally have to do that.

 

How the veteran got the flag is actually immaterial- the flag fits the definition of a war trophy. It was the flag of an artillery battery of a defeated enemy of the United States. While I agree the flag is important to the school, it's equally important to the State of Iowa as a rememberance to its' soldiers.

[George Newbill]

First of all "a defeated enemy of the United States"? WTF! Look the USA was dissolved in 1860, what United States are you referring to? There was only one legitimate government in North America at the time, the CSA. I am sick and tired of the BS you Yankees try to push as "history", it is not true. Anything you do at bayonet point is not legitimate.

[Richard Lindquist]

First of all "a defeated enemy of the United States"? WTF! Look the USA was dissolved in 1860, what United States are you referring to? There was only one legitimate government in North America at the time, the CSA. I am sick and tired of the BS you Yankees try to push as "history", it is not true. Anything you do at bayonet point is not legitimate.

 

Things done "at bayonet point" are very much legitimate. The entire history of the world was decided at bayonet point, sword point, or spear point. At one time much of the European continent spoke a Celtic language. The fact that Celtic languages are virtually dead in Europe today (except for Ireland and some attempts at revival in Scotland and Wales) was pretty much legitimized at the point of some edged weapon.

 

As to the so-called dissoulution of the US in 1860, some states chose to leave the US in 1860-1861 and later applied to return to the US (and were accepted). The USA was a continually functioning entity throughout.