The AT-3 SAGGER ATGM Soldiers On

[JW Collins]

Launcher and guidance have to be at certain angle so guidance picks missile.

Interesting. I wonder why other SACLOS ATGMs don't allow for the launcher to be seperated from the operator and sighting system like that. Maybe the chance of the guidance system not picking up a faster missile (thus wasting it) is too great?

[Colin]

Didn't Swingfire have one of the shortest minimum range with a setup designed to get the missile on track asap.

[Yalmuk]

 

Launcher and guidance have to be at certain angle so guidance picks missile.

Interesting. I wonder why other SACLOS ATGMs don't allow for the launcher to be seperated from the operator and sighting system like that. Maybe the chance of the guidance system not picking up a faster missile (thus wasting it) is too great?

 

 

Shershen/SKIF ATGM is just like that... tough it uses cable to have between operator and launcher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAUCZNs3E6Y

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shershen

[Yalmuk]

As of 2014 Chinese are still offering HJ-73 for export.

 

VN12 IFV seen in Zuhai 2014 event.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Yalmuk

[Simon Tan]

I would buy them if they were cheap enough. And if I could get them with a HE warhead.

[bojan]

I would buy them if they were cheap enough. And if I could get them with a HE warhead.

Psst, we offer FAE version...

[Simon Tan]

Too fancy. Need em cheap.

[Rod]

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

[Simon Tan]

RF. Like wireless TOW.

[bojan]

AT-2/6/10/16.

[Gavin-Phillips]

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

 

Interesting idea, I was thinking along the same lines but wondering if there's much of a future as far as laser-guidence is concerned. This is due in no small part to the increasing number of military forces who are using active protection on their tanks. I realise for now, this is a small percentage of even front line tanks at the moment but surely that amount will only increase over time.

[Yalmuk]

HJ-73C was used in Syria yesterday? I could be wrong but that fire control system is very similar to what Chinese use in HJ-73 SACLOS variants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuqSDsyRwBk

[Yalmuk]

I wonder if Saudis are now starting to send cheaper ATGM's for rebels in Syria? In many fronts toughest targets are T-55's without any ERA and regime technical's. Would be interesting to know if Chinese sold any HJ-73's to Saudis.

 

Anyone have knowledge of such deals ever happening?

[Simon Tan]

Very little Spiral usage.

[Yalmuk]

South Sudan bought new HJ-73D's recently and if I recall correctly it was South Sudan where rebels got HJ-8's from? Could have been the other Sudan too but i'm not sure.

http://www.janes.com/article/40621/south-sudan-takes-delivery-of-chinese-atgws

[Jim Warford]

 

[Nikolas93TS]

Did anyone except "modern" Chinese modernisations fielded manportable SACLOS Malyutkas for infantry? It seems to me SACLOS variants mostly went with dedicated tank destroyers or helicopters, while infantry kept MCLOS until it was withdrawn or replaced with newer missiles.

[Simon Tan]

Iran, NoKor, Yugo, Cuba all have SACLOS for man portable.

[bojan]

No, Yugoslavia and now Serbia used only MCLOS on manportable. No SACLOS infantry guidance units ever reached army.

Edited May 25, 2017 by bojan

[Blunt Eversmoke]

 

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

 

Interesting idea, I was thinking along the same lines but wondering if there's much of a future as far as laser-guidence is concerned. This is due in no small part to the increasing number of military forces who are using active protection on their tanks. I realise for now, this is a small percentage of even front line tanks at the moment but surely that amount will only increase over time.

 

Good point, but there are, generally speaking, two kids of laser guidance: Head reacting to laser-painting on the target (where your point stands) and beam riders. Would in be possible to upgrade Saggers to beam-riding? Beam-riding systems do not trigger APS that react to laser radiation, so only those APS that use radars would be any hindrance to a beam rider missile, and how many of those are in active service? Only Armata's Afghanite, innit?

[GARGEAN]

 

 

 

 

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

Interesting idea, I was thinking along the same lines but wondering if there's much of a future as far as laser-guidence is concerned. This is due in no small part to the increasing number of military forces who are using active protection on their tanks. I realise for now, this is a small percentage of even front line tanks at the moment but surely that amount will only increase over time.

Good point, but there are, generally speaking, two kids of laser guidance: Head reacting to laser-painting on the target (where your point stands) and beam riders. Would in be possible to upgrade Saggers to beam-riding? Beam-riding systems do not trigger APS that react to laser radiation, so only those APS that use radars would be any hindrance to a beam rider missile, and how many of those are in active service? Only Armata's Afghanite, innit?

Eghm... Trophy? And Afganit is not in service as for now. Edited May 27, 2017 by GARGEAN

[Colin]

I suspect decoy Lasers will enter the battlefield soon enough, a small drone lasing a tank to activate it's defenses and deplete them.

[Blunt Eversmoke]

 

 

 

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

Interesting idea, I was thinking along the same lines but wondering if there's much of a future as far as laser-guidence is concerned. This is due in no small part to the increasing number of military forces who are using active protection on their tanks. I realise for now, this is a small percentage of even front line tanks at the moment but surely that amount will only increase over time.

Good point, but there are, generally speaking, two kids of laser guidance: Head reacting to laser-painting on the target (where your point stands) and beam riders. Would in be possible to upgrade Saggers to beam-riding? Beam-riding systems do not trigger APS that react to laser radiation, so only those APS that use radars would be any hindrance to a beam rider missile, and how many of those are in active service? Only Armata's Afghanite, innit?

Eghm... Trophy? And Afganit is not in service as for now.

 

Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands - how many does that make? One - two as soon as Afghanite gets online.

[TTK Ciar]

Given the revolution in electronics bringing costs down, I wonder how much would cost to modify these Saggers and convert them to be laser guided.

The revolution in electronics can do much better than that. Between cheap optics and extraordinarily cheap, powerful embedded systems (like ASUS's Tinker, a complete 55-gram quad-core 1.8GHz 2GB DDR3 system the size of a credit card for $70), it should be possible to give old rocket munitions Javelin-like capabilities for less than $200.

 

The guidance mechanism could be as simple as two power controller ICs, a solenoid, two control rods, and two hinged vanes. Powering the solenoid +- would pull one rod, causing the vanes to move in the same direction, giving it pitch control. Powering the solenoid -+ would pull the other rod, causing the vanes to move in opposite directions, giving it roll control.

 

I've been expecting someone to roll out a product along these lines for upwards of a decade, but I guess there's not enough money in it.

 

ETA: I know the Sagger already has its own (more capable) control mechanism; I was veering off into contemplation of other old rocket systems which lack control mechanisms (like PG7M).

Edited May 27, 2017 by TTK Ciar

[Nikolas93TS]

At that point of modernization, you are better off designing a new missile from scratch.