Naming of AFV, ships, aircrafts etc...

[chino]

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QUOTE(Bob B @ Sun 28 Jun 2009 1247) 684497[/snapback]

FWIW, I do believe I remember hearing it called that too, or maybe the "point five 0, or O."

 

 

My older brother (RIP) was a TC on a M113 during the late 70's. Back then his vehicle sported a unprotected M2 and he referred to it as the "point-five".

 

But the M2 has since been phased out in SAF and we now use the CIS50, but I don't know what the troops call it.

 

FWIW

[shep854]

I've read that "Ma Deuce" supposedly went back to WWII. It does sound like WWII slang, like "Deuce and a Half".

[Kentucky-roughrider]

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

 

The P is P38 is for Pistloe, German for Pistol

The K in K98K the first one stand for Karbineer and the second one stands for Kurtz mean short.

The MP in MP 40 stands for Machinenpistole meaning Machine Pistol

[AlexW]

CVN-70 = Carrier of fixed wing aircraft with the ship having nuclear power 70

Which seems to have been derived from Cruiser heavier than air aViation, to fit in with CA and CL (Cruiser Armoured - later 'heavy' and Cruiser Light).

 

The US designation system was pretty well thought out until politics got in the way.

[Bob B]

I've read that "Ma Deuce" supposedly went back to WWII. It does sound like WWII slang, like "Deuce and a Half".

 

 

I grew up reading all sorts of WW2 stuff and I don't recall ever seeing the term Ma Deuce used in any accounts that were written during the WW2 period. For instance in To Hell and Back, Murphy never uses that term. Nor does it appear in any older technical works such as Chinn's The Machine Gun, Smith & Smith's Small Arms of the World, or Hatchers Notebook.

 

I am starting to think that the name originated on the History Channel, or something similar, and then got popular with the guys in the services.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Bob B

[Old Tanker]

"the fifty" or "a fifty" for me, too. Occasionaly, if someone was being chatty, "fifty cal". That's it.

 

 

Same here.

[Ken Estes]

As in, "when the fifty speaks, people listen...."

[hojutsuka]

Referring to the Japanese, their use of their own calendar (as opposed to the common Gregorian of the West) made their "Type" designations all the more confusing.

It's worse than that! link

 

The Japanese used two different systems.

 

Prior to 1926, the Model (or Type) number was the year of adoption, but in nengo, or year of reign. The well-known Model 38 infantry rifle was adopted in 1905, which was the 38th year of the reign of Emperor Meiji. The Model 11 light machine gun was adopted much later, in 1922, which was the 11th year of the reign of Emperor Taisho.

 

Starting in 1926, which was the start of the reign of Emperor Showa, the year was indicated using koki, which starts with the founding of Japan by the (mythical) Emperor Jinmu in 660 BC. Initially the last two digits were used, so Model 96 light machine gun was adopted in 1936, which is 2596 years since the founding of Japan in 660 BC.

 

Just to confuse Westerners more, starting in 1940 (which was 2600 in koki), the leading zero was omitted and only one digit used. So the famous Mitsubishi "Rei-sen" was Model "Zero" because it was adopted in 1940, and the 47mm AT gun was Model 1 because it was adopted in 1941.

 

Hojutsuka

[Corinthian]

It's worse than that! link

 

The Japanese used two different systems.

 

Prior to 1926, the Model (or Type) number was the year of adoption, but in nengo, or year of reign. The well-known Model 38 infantry rifle was adopted in 1905, which was the 38th year of the reign of Emperor Meiji. The Model 11 light machine gun was adopted much later, in 1922, which was the 11th year of the reign of Emperor Taisho.

 

Starting in 1926, which was the start of the reign of Emperor Showa, the year was indicated using koki, which starts with the founding of Japan by the (mythical) Emperor Jinmu in 660 BC. Initially the last two digits were used, so Model 96 light machine gun was adopted in 1936, which is 2596 years since the founding of Japan in 660 BC.

 

Just to confuse Westerners more, starting in 1940 (which was 2600 in koki), the leading zero was omitted and only one digit used. So the famous Mitsubishi "Rei-sen" was Model "Zero" because it was adopted in 1940, and the 47mm AT gun was Model 1 because it was adopted in 1941.

 

Hojutsuka

 

Methinks they deliberately did that to drive all the intel guys into madness.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

No, I think that "C" in CV always meant carrier not cruiser.

 

Which seems to have been derived from Cruiser heavier than air aViation, to fit in with CA and CL (Cruiser Armoured - later 'heavy' and Cruiser Light).

 

The US designation system was pretty well thought out until politics got in the way.

[chino]

Likewise, WWII tankers referred to their rides as the 'medium' or the 'light' or 'M4' or 'M5', not Sherman or Stuart. The latter came into use mostly from US news reports from the No African campaign, noting the Brit names and using them for the US equipt. Postwar, the best way the vets could describe what they did to the home folks was by borrowing the by-then pop jargon.

 

I know the people using the equipment will often have their own term for it different from the official designation... The troops may not say "M4 Sherman" as it sounds wanky, but is the name "Sherman" or "Stuart" was an official US military designation?

 

The British certainly took naming stuff a lot more seriously than the Americans. Actually to the point that some equipment/weapons don't even have a number (that I know of) only a name. For example, American aircrafts would be called the (North American) P-51D Mustang. The model number is "P-51" while the version designation is "D". Whereas the British (Supermarine) Spitfire MkIIA does not have a model number, only a version designation "MKIIA".

 

No one has even gone into the Soviet system yet. Far as I know, the only WW2 Russian tank with a name is the "Iosef Stalin".

[JWB]

BTW "Q" for aircraft means drone.

[Arthur Hubers]

No one has even gone into the Soviet system yet. Far as I know, the only WW2 Russian tank with a name is the "Iosef Stalin".

What Soviet system would you want? I know hardly anything about the non-aviation bit, but airdraft designators are usually enough to drive people totally insane. Program, project, design bureau, operational... All totally different systems which could be used (but not always were), and then changed ever so often, and sometimes are related to Western ASCC designators. Great fun.

 

There's the Kliment Voroshilov tanks, BTW.

[shep854]

No, I think that "C" in CV always meant carrier not cruiser.

 

 

There was a thread a while back, where the "Cruiser" idea was brought out. I would tend toward "cruiser", considering that all naval thinking at the time was surface-oriented, and a new mid-sized combat ship would fit the cruiser mission, especially in terms of supporting the Battle Line; in the case of CVs, with aircraft for scouting and harassment purposes (at the time, I don't think anybody considered single-engine airplanes a real risk to warships, aside from a few wild-eyed visionaries).

[Old Tanker]

but is the name "Sherman" or "Stuart" was an official US military designation?

 

 

Yes.

[bojan]

...Far as I know, the only WW2 Russian tank with a name is the "Iosef Stalin".

 

IS tank series

KV tank series

SMK tank (after S.M.Kirov)

D-8/12/13 armored cars (after constructor, Drizhenko IIRC)

D-4 and D-38 tank prototypes (same)

BT-SV tank (Stalin-Voroshilov)

VL tank prototype (Vladimir Lenin)

TG and TG-5 tank prototypes (Tank Grotte - after constructor Eduard Grotte)

TA tank prototype (Tank Asafova)

TM (Tank Molotova)

[chino]

 

What about the T-34?

 

And are any of the postwar vehicles given names beyond the model number (E.g. T54, BMD1, BTR-70 etc..)?

 

I could be wrong but the Soviet post-war designation system seems to be the most clinical and easy to understand one.

[binder001]

I know the people using the equipment will often have their own term for it different from the official designation... The troops may not say "M4 Sherman" as it sounds wanky, but is the name "Sherman" or "Stuart" was an official US military designation?

 

The British certainly took naming stuff a lot more seriously than the Americans. Actually to the point that some equipment/weapons don't even have a number (that I know of) only a name. For example, American aircrafts would be called the (North American) P-51D Mustang. The model number is "P-51" while the version designation is "D". Whereas the British (Supermarine) Spitfire MkIIA does not have a model number, only a version designation "MKIIA".

 

Sherman, etc = NO! Those were applied by the British and so became part of the ofiicial designation of the item for Commonwealth forces, but the tank names were not in any part of US Army nomenclature. Names came later and were mostly PR tools. For instance, one does not find the name "Pershing" on official Army documents about the M26 medium tank. I THINK "Hellcat" may have been a Buick PR applellation for their production of the 76mm Gun Motor Carriage M18. A British soldier looking for parts had to know he was working on a "Sherman IIA", while a GI would help him look up parts for Medium Tank M4A1 with 76mm Gun.

 

To the British it wasn't just a "Mustang" but a "Mustang I", "Mustang IIA", etc, used to pin down major model changes.

 

Don't forget that "P51D" was shorthand for a designation that had more information, such as "P51D-25-NA", showing the item, the major variant, the "block number, and its assembly plant (NA = North American at Los Angeles, NT = North American at Dallas, etc).

 

Gary

[Al]

Some names seem to have been "made up" or their use promoted by modelers or earlier tank historians (often from Europe). I have never seen anything before the 1970s referring to the 90mm Gun Motor Carriage M36 as a "Jackson", and where did anyone come up with calling a 75mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 a "Scott"?

 

I remember reading (probably in one of S. Zaloga's Osprey books) that the name "Jackson" was never used for the M36 & possibly was just a made-up name in the same manner that Sparky "named" the M113 "Gavin". From my readings, neither name has stuck.

[bojan]

What about the T-34?

There were nicknames for specific versions but nothing official.

 

And are any of the postwar vehicles given names beyond the model number (E.g. T54, BMD1, BTR-70 etc..)?

IS series. Nothing else.

 

I could be wrong but the Soviet post-war designation system seems to be the most clinical and easy to understand one.

 

Yes, but it is complicated as hell.

[binder001]

Regarding the Russian systems, remember that the medium tank called a "Sherman" by the British was an "emcha" to some Russian soldiers. I'll bet they had pet names for some of the other stuff, also.

 

Gary

[KingSargent]

IIRC the four-digit "M6406" was an attempt to rationalize a designation system, primarily for support vehicles. The idea was (I think) that the first two numbers would tell you what it was, the last two would be the model in the series. The Army started buying trucks off the shelf and needed some way to keep track of parts orders. It wouldn't do for a unit to order parts for its Chevy Blazer and get parts for the Ford Bronco serving the same role.

 

The current US aircraft numbering system was the result of SecDef MacNamara looking stupid when he didn't realize the Air Farce and Navy used the same airplane under different designations.

[Delta tank 6]

"the fifty" or "a fifty" for me, too. Occasionaly, if someone was being chatty, "fifty cal". That's it.

 

I only ever remember calling it the .50 cal, and the M-2, but no one has mentioned, unless I missed it, the M-85 .50 cal machinegun that was on the M60 series tank. When firing the .50 cal the TC was suppose to announce "Caliber 50".

 

Mike

[shep854]

I only ever remember calling it the .50 cal, and the M-2, but no one has mentioned, unless I missed it, the M-85 .50 cal machinegun that was on the M60 series tank. When firing the .50 cal the TC was suppose to announce "Caliber 50".

 

Mike

 

Words that describe the M85 are NSFW? The most positive statements I have read about the M85, weren't.

[Doug Kibbey]

Words that describe the M85 are NSFW? The most positive statements I have read about the M85, weren't.

 

 

I know one fan, and it ain't me.

 

He's right about the "Caliber fifty" command. IIRC, it was preceded by "From my position" (yeah, like anyone actually did this in practice....)