Naming of AFV, ships, aircrafts etc...

[shep854]

Well, it could have been worse. Before being type standardized, it was the XM-177.

 

Doesn't/didn't the Air Force have a GAU designation for the CAR-15?

 

As far as naming modern AFVs, somehow the name "Buford" for the XM8* AGS would not have cut it, apologies to General John Buford, who did a fine job.

 

*Whoops, here we go again! Confusion with the XM8 rifle!

Edited June 26, 2009 by shep854

[johnr]

The US Navy used to have a very straightforward naming policy. Battleships were named after states, carriers were named after battles or famous ships, cruisers were cities, destroyers were notable naval personnel, submarines were named after sea creatures (real or mythical). Then politics reared its ugly head. No more battleships = states feeling slighted, so let's name SSBNs after states. The real problem probably started with the FDR (CVB42) - now the carrier is named after a former president. Then in 1963 a well-meaning effort named CVA67 the John F. Kennedy. The genie was out of the bottle. CVN68 was Nimitz, now we are naming carriers after admirals (should have been a destroyer type) and CVN69 was Eisenhower (a general and a president) now we are really off track. CVN70 was the Vinson, now we are naming multi-billion dollar defense assets after political appointees! Common sense and tradition have mixed with silliness to where every ex-president now expects his own CVN! Historic battles went to cruisers, and cities went to SSNs.

 

Wasn't Forrestal named after a Secretary of the Navy?

 

Also couple of others:

 

As I understand it the Flying Fortress name came about because they were initially proposed/intended as Maritime Attack Bombers to defend the coast of the U.S. instead of Coastal Fortresses and not because of its number of guns as is popular - the original B17's were actually quite lightly armed when compared to contemporary British bombers - Wellington & Whitley.

 

It always amused me that in WWII your fighters were P for Pursuit while your photo recons were F for Foto!!

 

While I understand that the current V designation applies to Vertical (AV8 & V22) what does the V stand for when applied to Navy Squadrons and when applied to aircraft projects VFX (Tomcat Project).

 

As regards British Tanks names feature throughout their development - although not consistently - the first tanks was Mother and Little Willie(???) - strikes fear - and Whippet (For those who may not know a Whippet is a kind of dog similar in appearance to a Greyhound but smaller popular with working class people in the past). Then we started to designate Marks and Models with Roman Numerals - they were also given sexes Females carried machine guns and males carried 6pdr naval guns - there were even hemephrodites with machine guns on one side and 6 pdrs on the other.

 

This process stuck until the mid to late 30's - the Vickers Medium C and the various cruiser tank - a full list of all the names and types can be found here http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7413/index.html. The exception was the prototype Vickers Independent which never did anything. Then came in the naming cruiser tanks with names beginning with C - the cruisers being Cavalry tanks meant for fast movement and breaking through.

 

The infantry tanks - which were meant to support the infantry as so were more heavily armoured and slower (to keep pace with the infantry) - were named quite randomly - the Mk 1 was named Matilda because it looked like a cartoon duck!!! The reason for Churchill being named as such I can't recall at the moment however it should be remembered that Churchill was a moving force behind the development of the tank it was originally developed as a "land ship" by the Admiralty while Winni was 1st Lord of the Admiralty during WWI.

 

The C names have been stuck to for tanks serving with the British Army since then - there are the private venture Mk3, Mk7 and Valiant. Although we have started to have to repeat names - there was a Challenger during WWII.

 

Mobile artillery was named after the Anglican Clergy - Bishop, Sexton, Priest, Abbot although we have run out of these and gone for the AS (Artillery System) 90 Braveheart - maybe in our multi cultural world we could now have the Cardinal, Pope, Rabbi, Mulah and Ayotollah or even a Canon.

 

Lighter armour had: as pointed our above, names beginning with S, why I have no idea, although quite multicultural Saladin, Saracen, Sultan & Samaritan.

 

Rather strangely the FV432 was initially meant to be named Trojan but this never took and it has been referred to by its number throughout its life.

 

What will happen with future vehicles - who knows????

 

Regards.

 

 

Little help, how do you insert a URL on here? Thanks

[Old Tanker]

We did refer to M551's as "Sheridan's" (or in VN sometimes as "Shanks", which I've never heard anywhere else...Sheridan + Tank = "Shank", even easier to say than "Sheridan").

 

 

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

[Old Tanker]

I've left GI jargon alone ("SPAT" for instance).

 

Gary

 

Actually SPAT was quite accurate as in M-56 Self Propelled Anti- Tank.

I never heard of Scorpion until decades later.

[Doug Kibbey]

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

 

Still have one (a rough looking thing it is, too) on a carbiner on my VN ruck in the closet.

 

..they are still on the market for camping and stuff. A more efficient can opener for the size/weight has yet to be invented.

 

How the hell it got that nomenclature I have no idea. I heard one person opine that it was because it took "38 strokes to open a C-rat can". If it takes someone 38 strokes, they're doing something seriously wrong.

[shep854]

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

 

Coming from a Marine Corps background, I had always heard them called "John Waynes". It was later that I heard them called "P38s."

 

I still have mine from 1975 on my keyring. It's a "Speaker".

 

------

 

"While I understand that the current V designation applies to Vertical (AV8 & V22) what does the V stand for when applied to Navy Squadrons and when applied to aircraft projects VFX (Tomcat Project)."--johnr

 

"V" in Naval Aviation parlance means "heavier than air" as a unit descriptor. The "V" aircraft designator means fixed-wing vertical take-off/landing, and compared to helicopters, which are rotary wing ("H").

Edited June 27, 2009 by shep854

[Archie Pellagio]

Re carriers, I've never heard a good explanation for USS Shangri La

 

Generally speaking most are somewhat logical.

 

Why are some US aircrafts using "A" instead of "F"? Example, A4 Skyhawk and A10 Thunderbolt (thanks Tomas). A6 Intruder and its electronic warfare version, the EA6 Prowler. Is the "A" designation for ground attack planes? But then what about the AV-8 Harrier? Is the Harrier also a designated a ground attack plane?

 

Are there any other planes with the A designation?

 

Are there any differences between how an Army, Navy, Airforce or Marine aircraft is named? BTW, do these different branches still design.operate aircrafts that the other branches don't?

 

What seemed most consistent are the transport planes that all have a "C" name like C-130, C-47. Or the bombers like B-17, B-29, B-1, B-2. Are there any exceptions in these two areas?

 

Chino: The A-x aircraft are attack aircraft.

E-x = Electronic warfare.

F = Fighters (post McNamarra) the notable 'squidgies' are the century series aircraft which can be a mixed bag.

B = Bombers

H = Helo's

C = Transport (cargo)

T = Trainer

Y = Prototype

X = Experimental

 

And so on and so forth.

 

The Harrier is an Attack aircraft and the V is to imply vertical. There are A-x aircraft from 1-12 that I know of from the Skyraider to the Avenger II stealth aircraft. You also have to remember aircraft that made competition but not production (YA-9 for eg the Su-25 looking competitor to the A-10)

 

The big thing is to break up designations by eras, as the modern designations date largely from the McNamara era, but the A, B, P/F prefixes generally remain.

[shep854]

"Re carriers, I've never heard a good explanation for USS Shangri La wink.gif "--Luke Yaxley

 

Probably a bit of patriotic whimsy, after FDR announced that the Doolittle Raiders launched from "Shangri-La". Given the US Navy convention for reusing ships' names, I'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been another since.

[Ol Paint]

In the US, they have carried on naming their all their AFV after generals. Bradley, Abrams, Patton, Sherman, Lee, Stryker. I would be curious what they do with Desert Storm's Norman Schwarzkopf. Imagine the Norman MBT or Schwarzkopf IFV... All sound very wrong... Or maybe the Stormin' Norman sound more promising.

 

US aircraft carriers are named after presidents. And unlike AFVs they can use the whole name, like USS Ronald Reagan. When did this system of using presidents' names start?

 

Is there a system for naming US combat aircrafts? We have Mustang, Falcon, Eagle, Hornet, Tomcat, Raptor... But then we have Sabre, Phantom etc. I don't know if "Warthog" is official? There don't seem to be a strict adherence other than that they are all creatures.

 

It seems to me that all other countries are very ad hoc in naming their fighting vehicles, planes or ships.

Did the British Scorpion, Scimitar, Saladin, et al originate with S-for-Scout? Also, it seems that the Vickers developed tanks tended to have V names, e.g. Valentine.

 

Mustang was a British name, since the airplane was originally developed for them (vs. North American license-building P-40s, which the British named Warhawks, Kittyhawks, and Tomahawks). US aircraft naming tended to be based on manufacturer preference, as far as I can tell. Seversky (later Republic) painted Sever Sky with a lightning bolt separating the words on the side of their much rebuilt & circulated demonstrator(s), which may account for their later affinity for "Thunder." Lockheed was a mixed bag, with a tendency towards "stars"--Shooting Star, Starfighter, Constellation. Of course, there was also the Constitution, Neptune, Lightning, and Harpoon. Not all of the Lockheed names were Lockheed originated, which is one explanation. McDonnell aircraft were named after spirits: Demon, Goblin, Phantom, Spectre. If I had to guess, I'd say the North American Sabre was a British name. I'm not real sure about Douglas Aircraft: World Cruiser, Dauntless (SBD), Devastator (TBD), Destroyer (XBTD), Skytrain (C-47), Nightingale (C-9), Skyray (F4D), Mixmaster (XB-42), Globemaster, Cargomaster. Convair was all over the place, too, starting with C names (Coronado, Catalina--which was a British name choice, Canso) then moving on to things like Delta Dart, Sea Dart, and Delta Dagger (pretty obvious) and Hustler. Martin had the Mariner, Mercator, Marauder, Seamaster...

 

The F-111 was officially named the Aardvark by the AF on the same day it officially retired from service.

 

The USN used to have an interesting aircraft naming designation system until McNamara came along. They used a letter or two for the mission, a number designating the sequence of the particular aircraft type from the particular manufacturer (unless it was the first one, in which case, no number), followed by another letter for the manufacturer, then a dash number indicating subtype. So, a PBJ wasn't a sandwich, it was the first patrol bomber built by North American. A3D was the third attack aircraft type purchased from Douglas, while the A3J was the third from North American. When the tri-service designation scheme went into effect, the aircraft were renumbered to fit into a single sequence. The A3J-1 became the A-5A, the F4H became the F-4, the F-110 became the F-4, etc.

 

The F/A-18 was so named since it was a multi-role aircraft. Occasionally, you will still find references to A-18s. There were also fighter-bombers, the FB-111 being the primary example.

 

It all ends up being a marketing game on someone's part. The service will play games with "new" versus "modified" as in the M26/M46. Or the manufacturer might ask for a designation for the same reason. Northop initially marketed the Tigershark as the F-5G since the Carter administration preferred to limit the export sales of "new" systems. When Reagan came along and his administration decided to sell "new" systems, the F-5G designation became a liability & Northrop requested F-20. Incidentally, the F-5 series went through several names--Freedom Fighter, Tiger, Tiger II, Tigershark, Tigereye (RF-5), and Talon (T-38).

 

Perhaps one advantage to monarchies for the FFZ thread would be the naming conventions for ships. The British are always held up as an example for cool ship names and it seems to be a result of the method by which the names are selected.

 

Douglas

[shootER5]

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

 

 

I served during the MRE-era, but have carried a P-38 on my key ring for over twenty years.

 

Not only do I sometimes need to open the occasional can, but it's also a great field-expedient screwdriver!

[Murph]

Heck, I STILL carry my P-38 on my key chain. Used it the other day at work to open a can.

 

 

Doug:

 

The one I never figured out was the P-38. Not the fighter plane , not the German pistol type. But the one wore on many dog tag chains.

 

Only us old C-rat guys know about it. Why P ? One of those unknown ways of the U.S. military.

For some unknown reason I know of guys out of the military 20-30 years and they still carried a P-38.

[Ken Estes]

When I was in, anyone who had referred to a "forty-eight" or "sixty" as a Patton ("You guys go bring that Patton over to the field support office.") would have been looked at in befuddlement or as if they were from Mars (then the laughter would have started). Never heard the expression.

 

M151A1's and A2's were referred to as "Jeeps". Never heard the term "Mutt" 'til many years later. M37 was still a "Beep" or "three-quarter" (the Kaiser Jeep thingy , or M-517, regardless of the actual model) was a "five-quarter"). Common wheeled vehicles were all referred to by capacity, except the "Jeep". Same-same on my driver's license. Tracked vehicles by model number. M578's were "VTR's" and M88's were "eighty-eights".

 

We did refer to M551's as "Sheridan's" (or in VN sometimes as "Shanks", which I've never heard anywhere else...Sheridan + Tank = "Shank", even easier to say than "Sheridan").

 

 

Likewise, WWII tankers referred to their rides as the 'medium' or the 'light' or 'M4' or 'M5', not Sherman or Stuart. The latter came into use mostly from US news reports from the No African campaign, noting the Brit names and using them for the US equipt. Postwar, the best way the vets could describe what they did to the home folks was by borrowing the by-then pop jargon.

[Ken Estes]

I find something very confusing as to why the Americans call everything a M1 or M2 or M3 and this continues to this day.

 

There are M2 halftracks, M2 Bradley.

 

M3 Stuart, and then M3 Lee. M3 Halftracks, then the M3 Grease Gun.

 

M1 Garand, M1 carbine. M1 Thompson.

 

And just when you thought the Americans prefer small numerals, they suddenly surprised everyone with M14. What happened to the M5 rifle, or the M7, M10 or M13 rifles? There weren't any far as I know. So how come we jumped straight to M14? What does the 14 signify? Or the M16 for that matter?

 

Is M48 Patton named for the year it was designed? Is the M60 still called a Patton?

 

What does the "M" stand for? Mark? Military? Model? Or nothing.

 

Just when you thought M113 was a big number unusual for US, they came up with M551. Was there a M246 etc? Why "551"?

 

 

Must be a need to reset once you get into the hundreds, with AFVs and fighters: F-111, then F-4,5,15,16,22,35. Tanks go from M48,60, M103 to M1, likewise M113 to M2 [i think Bradley was also an M1 until somebody intervened]. As to the M-model story, I collaborated with Kurt Laughlin [from teh Bradford AFV site] to contribute the following:

 

M (Model Designation, U.S. Weapons)

 

Through most of the 19th Century, the U.S. forces generally followed European practices in designating ordnance and other equipment by “Model” and year of introduction or standardization. The original “M system” seems to have evolved during 1875-1880. Prior to that it was "Model of 1860," for example. Until 1917, henceforth, the U.S. Army designated its equipment as the “Rifle, M1903” or “75mm gun, M1897” [the famous ‘French 75’]or “Tank, 6-ton, Model 1917.” In 1917, the US practice shifted to using the British system of “Mark (roman numeral),” such as the Mark VIII tank, the famous “International.” On July 1, 1925, the U.S. Army began using the current M-series designations, an M followed by an Arabic numeral, with no space or hyphen, as is sometimes erroneously ascribed to the U.S. system. It remains very important to remember that this is the Ordnance Corps system and can only be reliably applied to Ordnance cognizant equipment, even to this day. The other technical branches - Medical Corps, Corps of Engineers, Signal Corps, and Chemical Warfare Corps- had their own nomenclature systems, as did the U.S. Army Air Service/ Air Corps/ Air Forces, and the other uniformed services. Some of these systems followed the Ordnance system pretty well, some more or less, and some not at all.

 

The M-series was intended to designate a sequential development of materiel by type, with tanks being numbered M1 through M6, for instance during 1940-42, regardless of their differences; light, medium, heavy. There were similar M1 designations for the Garand service rifle, the .30 caliber carbine and the elevation quadrant, to name a few. These categories necessarily became more detailed under the demands of periodic military expansions. In some cases, the services ran out of numbers for the weapons and restarted, such as with the M1 main battle tank, M2 infantry fighting vehicle and M4 carbine, all introduced in the 1990s. Under the M-series system, prototypes and non-standardized items took “T” numbers, which, adding to possible confusion, did not always remain when at last standardized as an “Mxxx” item. Thus the T43 heavy tank of 1949 became the M103 series tank of 1955, and so forth. The attempt to rationalize this situation came in the form of the “XM” designation for testbeds and prototypes, which first saw light in 1951, and became a standard practice by the end of that decade. Thus, the XM198 155mm gun howitzer became standardized as the M198, and this practice holds to the present day; so far.

 

International Encyclopedia of Military History, 2 vols., ed. James C. Bradford, London: Routledge, 2006.

[R011]

If I had to guess, I'd say the North American Sabre was a British name.

I would doubt that Sabre was a British name. It was in USAF service years before any Commnwealth air force got them.

The USN used to have an interesting aircraft naming designation system until McNamara came along.

It had its quirks, though. For one thing, an Army / Air Force type in Navy service would be given a new name and vice versa. The Texan (aka Harvard) was AT-6 in the USAAF and SNJ in the USN. The Phantom II, on the other hand, was F4H in the Navy and was to be F-110 in the Air Force. That didn't happen thanks to McNamara.

 

An even odder quirk was that the same airctaft would have completely different designations depending on who built it. The Wildcat was both F4F (Grumman) and FM (General Motors) Similarly the Avenger was the TBF and TBM. The Vought built Corsair was the F4U while the Goodyear built one was the FG.

 

That seems to be about the only thing McNamara did that was at all useful.

Edited June 28, 2009 by R011

[R011]

Must be a need to reset once you get into the hundreds, with AFVs and fighters: F-111, then F-4,5,15,16,22,35. Tanks go from M48,60, M103 to M1, likewise M113 to M2 [i think Bradley was also an M1 until somebody intervened]. As to the M-model story, I collaborated with Kurt Laughlin [from teh Bradford AFV site] to contribute the following:

International Encyclopedia of Military History, 2 vols., ed. James C. Bradford, London: Routledge, 2006.

With aircraft the system reset when McNamara decided to go to a tri-service designation system. Many of the low numbered naval systems remained almost the same while new aircraft were numbered in sequence. The last ex-Navy fighter in sequence, for instance, the F11F, became the F-11. The next fighter developed was the YF-12. F-13 was not used so the F-14 was the next one.

[shep854]

The Navy's aircraft designation system, pre-McNamara, was actually very logical and informative. The expansion of WWII did produce some duplication, such as "M" (for Martin) also being used for General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division. If you understood the context and background, though, there was no confusion.

 

Of course, given the aerospace mergers of the last 20 years, things could have gotten a little blurred.

 

Back to AFVs: Was there a reason for the Brits using the names of Confederate generals for the M3 light/medium tanks?

Edited June 28, 2009 by shep854

[Ol Paint]

I would doubt that Sabre was a British name. It was in USAF service years before any Commnwealth air force got them.

 

It had its quirks, though. For one thing, an Army / Air Force type in Navy service would be given a new name and vice versa. The Texan (aka Harvard) was AT-6 in the USAAF and SNJ in the USN. The Phantom II, on the other hand, was F4H in the Navy and was to be F-110 in the Air Force. That didn't happen thanks to McNamara.

 

An even odder quirk was that the same airctaft would have completely different designations depending on who built it. The Wildcat was both F4F (Grumman) and FM (General Motors) Similarly the Avenger was the TBF and TBM. The Vought built Corsair was the F4U while the Goodyear built one was the FG.

 

That seems to be about the only thing McNamara did that was at all useful.

You would be correct. I was guessing that the Saber name came about with the Canadair, but didn't know. Per Joe Baugher's article on the F-86A: "In February of 1949, there was a contest held by the First Fighter Group to choose a name for their new fighter. The name *Sabre* was selected, and was made official on March 4, 1949."

 

Douglas

[JOE BRENNAN]

The Navy's aircraft designation system, pre-McNamara, was actually very logical and informative. The expansion of WWII did produce some duplication, such as "M" (for Martin) also being used for General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division. If you understood the context and background, though, there was no confusion.

I agree, I like the pre-1962 Navy system. The Japanese Navy had a similar system used from the late 1920's thru WWII; the USN one was adopted in 1922, perhaps the Japanese one was inspired by it though I've never read that. One difference though was that the JNAF so called short designation was generally used to refer to the plane's detailed design phase. Once in service planes were referred to by their type designations. So sometimes books refer to Zeroes as 'A6M3', say, as if from the Japanese side, a clear and concise way to tell the English reader which plane is being referred to, but Japanese operating units wouldn't refer to the plane that way. In formal writing it would be Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 32. In combat reports it would one of yet another set of abbreviations, which for Carrier Fighter was what looks like a tall script or lower case 'f' followed by a small superscript 'c' and subscript arabic numeral '0' or Chinese character for zero. Interestingly the F4F would sometimes be referred to in the same reports written just that way, 'F4F'*, but never 'A6M' for their own fighters.

 

*though sometimes instead 'Grumman' spelled out phonetically in katakana syllabary.

 

Joe

[Kenneth P. Katz]

GAU-5/A

 

Doesn't/didn't the Air Force have a GAU designation for the CAR-15?

[Kenneth P. Katz]

Examples of the use of "V" in naval aviation

 

VFA-41 = Strike Fighter Squadron (in other words, fixed wing) 41

CVN-70 = Carrier of fixed wing aircraft with the ship having nuclear power 70

 

"While I understand that the current V designation applies to Vertical (AV8 & V22) what does the V stand for when applied to Navy Squadrons and when applied to aircraft projects VFX (Tomcat Project)."--johnr

 

"V" in Naval Aviation parlance means "heavier than air" as a unit descriptor. The "V" aircraft designator means fixed-wing vertical take-off/landing, and compared to helicopters, which are rotary wing ("H").

[shep854]

Referring to the Japanese, their use of their own calendar (as opposed to the common Gregorian of the West) made their "Type" designations all the more confusing.

[Bob B]

Concerning the Browning M2HB .50 Caliber Machine Gun. I worked with these things for almost 20 years, starting in 1977, and don't remember ever having heard of it referred to as a Ma Deuce, until a couple of years after I left that business.

 

When dealing with the military out of Rock Island, Crane, or other government contractors, we always used it's official designation or shortened it to the M2, M2HB, The Browning, The M2 .50 caliber Machine Gun, or just The Fifty. When we got specific Flex, or Fixed was added. Aircraft types were referred to as the M2AC, M3, XM 218, etc.. Also when dealing with foreign governments such as Australia, France, Greece, Norway, the UK, I never heard that nick name, even when dealing with civilian sales.

 

When did this name become popular? The first time I heard it referred to as the Ma Deuce was probably in the 1990's when I got on the internet. I some how suspect that it might have had something to do with the civilian interest in machine guns that developed in the USA back the late 1970's, and early 80's. Maybe it originated out of a Soldier Of Fortune magazine article, or something similar. Perhaps a movie? I worked with fellows who had been in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam and never heard them use this name. One of the VN fellows would refer to the M16 as The Sixteen, and the M2HB as The Fifty.

 

FWIW, my father worked on the aircraft guns in WW2 in the Navy doing Aviation Ordnance stuff, he remembered all sorts of the technical stuff about them too, but I never heard him use the term Ma Deuce, even when I took him on a tour of our facility.

 

So when did some of the "seasoned members" here first hear the term Ma Deuce?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Bob B

[Doug Kibbey]

"the fifty" or "a fifty" for me, too. Occasionaly, if someone was being chatty, "fifty cal". That's it.

[chino]

-->

QUOTE(Bob B @ Sun 28 Jun 2009 1159) 684492[/snapback]

So when did some of the "seasoned members" here first hear the term Ma Deuce?

 

On the internet for sure. I've read lots of pre-internet gun mags, books and other military books and never came across the "ma deuce" term.

 

Of course I am from faraway SE Asia. And in SAF it is simply the "point five".

[Bob B]

...Of course I am from faraway SE Asia. And in SAF it is simply the "point five".

 

 

FWIW, I do believe I remember hearing it called that too, or maybe the "point five 0, or O."