More new camo uniforms?

[George Newbill]

Oh yes Little BillB I have done my homework, have you? Let's see.

 

First the Germans in WWII never used any of those names for the patterns in question. "Tarnjacke" just means "Camouflaged Jacket." These names are used to identify material by post-war collectors. The German Army bought the Zeltbahn shelter quarter/poncho or at least the cloth from the Swiss long before the SS developed their patterns. Therefore the older of two nearly identical concepts is the original idea. I'm not saying that the SS did not develop camouflage patterns just that the idea came to the Germans via the Swiss. Nor am I saying that the US Army ERDL was not in and of itself better than the "Liebmuster" just designed after having seen it and pretty much copied it.

 

One correction: the paint pattern on US vehicles was called MERDC not ERDL but the similarities, (in time, place, color and shapes) make it likely that MERDC is just an enlarged ERDL pattern.

 

I do my homework but 99.999% of trivia is just well, trivia. I know all of this stuff, it just ain't all that important, not now, never was. I am, or more correctly I was, looking for an edge first to keep my rear end then later my men's rears alive. To that end I researched camouflage.

[BillB]

Oh yes Little BillB I have done my homework, have you? Let's see.

 

Really, Georgie Boy? It sure don't show if you have really done your homework, unless your semi-literate ramblings and habit of contradictuing yourself three or four times per post is a deliberate ploy to throw us off the scent. That aside, yes, let's see.

 

First the Germans in WWII never used any of those names for the patterns in question. "Tarnjacke" just means "Camouflaged Jacket." These names are used to identify material by post-war collectors. The German Army bought the Zeltbahn shelter quarter/poncho or at least the cloth from the Swiss long before the SS developed their patterns. Therefore the older of two nearly identical concepts is the original idea. I'm not saying that the SS did not develop camouflage patterns just that the idea came to the Germans via the Swiss. Nor am I saying that the US Army ERDL was not in and of itself better than the "Liebmuster" just designed after having seen it and pretty much copied it.

Tarnjacke" does indeed mean camouflaged Jacket. So which German or indeed any other force was issued with such an item before 1939 besides the W-SS? AFAIK the answer is none, so your statement that "Waffen SS...used reversable [sic] uniforms and helmet covers in the latter stages of WWII" is simply inaccurate to wrong. As for the rest -

- First, they don't know whether the Germans used those terms or not, and the post-war collectors piucked them up from academics who researched the matter, often via interviews with German veterans, many of whom were apparently familiar with the terms. And Leibermuster at least *is* a verifiable official German term.

- Second, the Heer introduced the splinter-pattern zeltbahn in 1931, only five years or so before the W-SS started their own developments, which doesn't equate to "long before".

- Third, the splinter pattern and SS cloud pattern are not nearly identical concepts, they are at differing ends of the scale. The splinter stuff was/is intended to break up shape by creating additional hard edged shapes and blocks of contrasting colours, whereas the W-SS stuff is intended to make shape and colour run togather by blurring the edges. Both concepts are still in use by various militaries across the world.

- Fourth, it is impossible to say that W-SS Leibermuster looks like ERDL because all the original examples of the former are so badly faded that it is nigh on impossible to ascertain the colours or pattern clearly enough. The only clear basis for comparison is the black squiggly bits, which are very much larger on the Leibermuster than on ERDL and more akin to those on US Woodland pattern, which is merely ERDL scaled up four times or so. Either way, the only way you can claim that the ERDL stuff is "pretty much copied" from Leibermuster is on the basis that both are examples of camouflage military clothing...

 

One correction: the paint pattern on US vehicles was called MERDC not ERDL but the similarities, (in time, place, color and shapes) make it likely that MERDC is just an enlarged ERDL pattern.

 

Correction for you mebbe Georgie Boy, I already figured that Mobility Equipment Research & Design Command (MERDC) was what you were groping painfully towards.

 

I do my homework but 99.999% of trivia is just well, trivia. I know all of this stuff, it just ain't all that important, not now, never was. I am, or more correctly I was, looking for an edge first to keep my rear end then later my men's rears alive. To that end I researched camouflage.

 

Well Georgie Boy, baldly stating inaccuracies and repeatedly contradicting yourself might equate to trivia and "knowing all this stuff" on your planet. However, on mine it is invariably the hallmark of the ignorant trying to pretend they know more than they actually do, usually after being caught out spouting nonsense. And spare me the subtle bigging up bit about looking for edges for your and your men's rears, merely wearing the kit you were issued doesn't count - unless you are claiming to have been involved in some super-duper, secret squirrel camouflage research for the US Army. Or was it the CS Army? Sometimes it's hard to keep track of your ramblings.

 

I used to wonder why so many folk around here consider you to be a slack jawed Cletus at best and a carbuncle on the gluteus maximus at worst, but the scales are starting to fall from my eyes.

 

BillB

Edited June 29, 2009 by BillB

[shep854]

Actually "Highland" and "Lowland" for the brown & green respectively for the ERDL patterns along with "Delta" pattern which became "Woodland" and used in the BDU.

 

"Summer" and "Winter" was the terms I heard used; unofficial usage.

[George Newbill]

Sorry BillB I lost what the point was that you were trying to make? You pretty much confirmed what I just said. Huh? I'd like to take you seriously but, nah... Oh never mind.

 

As for blured edge vs hard edge patterns the SS themselves changed to other types than the blured almost immediately so they themselves were still looking for "the perfect" pattern.

 

Summer/Winter, Highland/Lowland, whatever. I believe at the time ERDL was kinda Viet Nam focused. I heard Highland and Lowland and it fits the date so I'll buy that for a dollar.

[BillB]

Sorry BillB I lost what the point was that you were trying to make? You pretty much confirmed what I just said. Huh? I'd like to take you seriously but, nah... Oh never mind.

 

As for blured edge vs hard edge patterns the SS themselves changed to other types than the blured almost immediately so they themselves were still looking for "the perfect" pattern.

 

Summer/Winter, Highland/Lowland, whatever. I believe at the time ERDL was kinda Viet Nam focused. I heard Highland and Lowland and it fits the date so I'll buy that for a dollar.

No Georgie Boy, if you really did miss my point then it is down to your woefully inadequate reading and comprehension skills, as it is quite clear. Fact is of course, you got the point pefectly well but cannot acknowledge the fact because as usual, to do so would mean admitting to all and sundry that you are in fact a clueless, waffling tube of the first order. Ref the SS changing patterns, mebbe you could point out where they moved from soft to hard edged patterns. No? Thought not, just more waffle then, intended to conceal the fact that you don't really know all that much about the matter but are trying to pretend otherwise. Which pretty much shows that the only confirmation here actually goes the other way, I think. And ref the ERDL people being kinda Vietnam focussed, how so if the ERDL camo pattern originated in 1948, according to you by "ripping off" the SS Leibermuster? Make your mind up, Georgie, you can't have it both ways. Except you can, because you will simply dismiss the matter as trivia, and/or simply ignore it and carry on waffling.

 

Oh, and with your record around here, the idea of *you* deciding whether or not other folk should or shouldn't be taken seriously is pure comedic genius.

 

BillB

[George Newbill]

As the Poet said: "I'm the maker of rules, dealing with fools."

 

Okay Mr Smartypants BillB you tell us the change over date from Hard Edge to Soft Edge camouflage patterns and why they changed back and for my part I'll tell you what it is like to have a girlfriend.

[shep854]

Summer/Winter, Highland/Lowland, whatever. I believe at the time ERDL was kinda Viet Nam focused. I heard Highland and Lowland and it fits the date so I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

I wasn't arguing the official designation; just mentioning what I heard them called.

[BillB]

As the Poet said: "I'm the maker of rules, dealing with fools."

 

Okay Mr Smartypants BillB you tell us the change over date from Hard Edge to Soft Edge camouflage patterns and why they changed back and for my part I'll tell you what it is like to have a girlfriend.

Which would me and just about anyone else in here the Poet where you are concerned then eh, Georgie Boy. So once again, nothing of substance to add to the thread then or God forbid, any attenpt to address the points made, just more down home waffle to conceal the fact that you don't really know your arse from your elbow on the topic at hand.

 

As for the bit about you telling me or anyone else what it's like to have a girlfriend, I kinda doubt that mate. An immediate relative or even cousin mebbe, or perhaps even a compliant member of the household livestock pool, there you'd be the real expert. But a real live female who's not a blood relative? Nah, never in a million years, except mebbe in your dreams.

 

Now do yourself a favour and jog on to some place inhabited by spotty teenagers and the hard of thinking, who might possibly be impressed with your level of "knowledge" and discourse, because you are badly out of your depth here on all counts, son.

 

BillB

[George Newbill]

That was almost, but not quite a good come back.

 

As to the subject at hand, I beleive that a new uniform (or just about any old uniform) would be an inprovement over the ACUPAT. My problem is that I have never been to Afganistan and can't comment on the ACUPAT's usefulness there, just that It don't work elsewhere.

[Rocky Davis]

I would love to write a Magnum Opus . . .

 

 

Geez . . . how inviting . . . what a target opening.

 

But, I will adhere to the recent words of a longtime, dear friend on these TN pages, who recently asked me nicely to “Please, lay off George.” Therefore, there will be no quick “Target, Ceasefire” for me here when it could have come very easily.

 

Of course, others may decide to take the easy shot . . . as already witnessed in these past posts with BillB.

[George Newbill]

Uh... back to topic: "Are new uniforms needed in Afganistan?"

 

I still like the Multicam as use a unversal camouflage, the purpose for which it was developed.

 

Now the US Army had the Woodland BDU and the 3-color DCU and just needed to buy more of both. Well this is what gets me okay if you were to find an unversal pattern you could save some money on stocking and suppling one vs two uniforms and anyone can tell you that any savings in logistics is a big savings. So the Army spends a buncha money developing a buncha camouflage patterns, tests them, I mean actually for real tests them, then picks one that ain't in the top 4, changes it & does no further testing after the change, then adopts the new pattern (ACUPAT) even though the pattern does not work in any enviroment any where on Earth.

 

So are new uniforms needed in Afganistan? Uh..yeah, duh...

[seahawk]

Would it no be simple, if all US military services would use the same uniforms again. So you could have 3 different version without having more uniform variations overall. Just like i the days of Woodland, Desert and Artic.

[chino]

Would it no be simple, if all US military services would use the same uniforms again. So you could have 3 different version without having more uniform variations overall. Just like i the days of Woodland, Desert and Artic.

 

China military and paramilitary wear a wide variety of different uniforms. But they have an excuse since the territory is vast and need different camo types. From what I know, the Marines wear a crazy blue camo, then there's the PLA standard green camo. Then the Special Forces wear a camo that's quite similar to the AFP (Philippines) standard uniform.

 

But speaking of the Philippines. I saw a series of pictures of a military parade and I lost count of how many different types of uniform in use. Do they wear these uniforms just for that parade to differentiate themselves? Or do they always wear different uniforms? Maybe Tomas can enlighten us further.

[George Newbill]

Well the US Marines want to look different from the US Army and to be truthful they need to differentiate themselves enough from the Army so that they are not disbanded as a second (un-needed) army.

 

The Artic Cammouflage issue is easally fixed, just make all "extreem cold weather" clothing white.

[shep854]

Well the US Marines want to look different from the US Army and to be truthful they need to differentiate themselves enough from the Army so that they are not disbanded as a second (un-needed) army.

 

Or worse, folded into the Army.

[Exel]

The ACUPAT could make a decent winter camo for a suitably barren terrain. But whoever thought it is a good universal camo to be worn in woodlands or any place else green in the summer should be demoted.

[Exel]

The Finnish camo pattern used in Afghanistan (image courtesy of the FDF):

 

http://www.mil.fi/rauhanturvaaja/get2data.php?id=407

 

 

And the winter camo based on the same pattern:

 

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showfull.php?photo=10424

[Dawes]

Does't the olive green gear kind of defeat the purpose?

[George Newbill]

Which is why you need a neutral color like medium grey or the "Universal" pattern for gear.

[Paul G.]

Does't the olive green gear kind of defeat the purpose?

 

reminds me of these

 

 

[George Newbill]

That bottom picture was the US Army @ 2003-'05.

[FOXMG]

That bottom picture was the US Army @ 2003-'05.

 

*the following adds nothing to the discussion and is just some reminicing***

Probably shortly after Dec 15th 2003. That Colonel in the picture is Colonel James Hickey. Known by some as the commander of the brigade who caught Saddam.

 

You all might (or might not! ) know him better as my Squadron commander when I was in 2/3 ACR. Fox troop to be exact, where I was the troop master gunner. During my time there I happened upon this here forum and registered under the moniker FOXMG.

[George Newbill]

Well FoxMG what say you on the question of new uniforms for Afganistan?

[Corinthian]

But speaking of the Philippines. I saw a series of pictures of a military parade and I lost count of how many different types of uniform in use. Do they wear these uniforms just for that parade to differentiate themselves? Or do they always wear different uniforms? Maybe Tomas can enlighten us further.

 

AFAIK, they have different uniforms. With all the military adventures our "nationalistic military officers" do, I guess having different sets of uniforms is a plus to differentiate who is a loyalist and who is a rebel.

 

Wikipedia has a list of who-uses-what-camouflauge, uhm, list. In it is a listing for the Philippines and it mentions that apparently some of the patterns are already phased out. I reckon though that with how cash-strapped our military really is, I wouldn't be surprised if some soldiers are still using the older/phased-out patterns in the field.

 

I prefer the Israeli concept of just one colour, period. As mentioned earlier on that, when in the field, it'll eventually get dirty and all that. Practical to hell I can imagine. Cheaper too I guess (no steeeeeeeenking rivalry between services and within each service "Oooh! I just have to get the coolest camo than those n00bs!").

 

I'm awaiting the return of red jackets on the front, though, with matching hats of course:

 

[FOXMG]

Well FoxMG what say you on the question of new uniforms for Afganistan?

 

As I stated earlier in this thread I am perfectly happy with the ACU's. I think they work quite well during hours of limited visibility and at night. For me at least this seems to be the time we are mostly operating, unless its a daytime TCP or mounted convoy. In that case stay behind cover. Cover is always better than concealment anyways.

 

I do not like IOTV though, I prefer the IBA.

 

The only complaint I have with ACU's is the velcro and the inability to sew badges on.

 

After three days of operations its all academic anyways. BDU's, DCU's, ACU's they all turn the same color of dirt/oil/sweat/grease.

Edited July 1, 2009 by FOXMG