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More new camo uniforms?


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Guest JamesG123
It was designed to aid soldiers in concealment from older generation enemy night vision devices (NVDs).

 

Didn't work.

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Some people regard the Russian KLMK pattern from the 1960's as the original digital pattern.

 

I always get a chuckle out of it :)

But wouldn't the technical description of digital camo be that it is designed to graduate colours without noticing? The very strong two tone doesn't really do that much.

 

What was the idea behind the pixelating of it? Ease of manufacture?

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Guest JamesG123
What was the idea behind the pixelating of it? Ease of manufacture?

 

Military fashion.

 

Beyond a few tens of feet the human eye and electronic sensors do not even pick up that the pattern is made up of small square blocks. It would be just as effective, and easy to make if the fabric were printed with smooth transitions between tones and colors.

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Some people regard the Russian KLMK pattern from the 1960's as the original digital pattern.

 

I don't know what the respective development timelines are, but W. German Flek seems to be "almost" digital. As JamesG123 indicated, from a distance you can't tell.

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I always get a chuckle out of it :)

But wouldn't the technical description of digital camo be that it is designed to graduate colours without noticing? The very strong two tone doesn't really do that much.

 

What was the idea behind the pixelating of it? Ease of manufacture?

 

"Digital": On/Off, 1/0 - i.e. sharp contrast and definition, not subtle graduation.

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Well if you look at the woods at about human hight you see leaves and behind them something else, the idea is to paint a two dementional pattern on cloth that mimics the three diminsional appearance of the background enough to fool the human eye to not detect the shape of a human.

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Well if you look at the woods at about human hight you see leaves and behind them something else, the idea is to paint a two dementional pattern on cloth that mimics the three diminsional appearance of the background enough to fool the human eye to not detect the shape of a human.

 

Realtree

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Realtree

 

Realtree is amazing, in a 2nd or 3rd growth hardwood forest. But it would probably suck in a stand of mountain laurel, or around general weeds and brush in the summer.

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SAF old woodland pattern vs new digital camo.

 

 

 

Actually it seems to me like they got the colour of the old woodland pattern wrong. A more fair comparison would be to put a traditional pattern next to a digital pattern, but both must be the same shades, in order to ascertain if digital is really so magical...

Edited by chino
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Realtree is amazing, in a 2nd or 3rd growth hardwood forest. But it would probably suck in a stand of mountain laurel, or around general weeds and brush in the summer.

 

True enough, but that wasn't the point George made: he established the parameters.

 

On a broader view, many of the camo patterns developed for hunting in the US are amazing in the environment for which they were designed. All are fairly narrow in design, reinforcing the need to reject the one-pattern-fits-all mentality. Heck, most hunters have several patterns at hand for the same terrain in different seasons, an issue that has gotten little attention so far on this thread.

 

I still think Butternut or maybe even CASA gray(and I'm a Union kinda guy :) ), but khaki would do as a base, I suppose.

 

My own personal favorite pattern is the Swiss Alpenflage, just because it looks neat, not because of any perceived superiority. Still, n the woods in the fall hereabouts, it does very well, at least as long as the Summac retains its leaves.

Edited by Steven P Allen
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I always thought that our old plan green combats worked the best. They seemed to pick up the surrounding dirt and blend in. And some leaves and stuff to change your outline as a human, and bingo you blend in

 

I still suspect we adopted CAMO to be kewl like everyone else.

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I love Realtree, and I have a moisture-wicking long sleeve T-shirt that I wear under my jacket top but the Multicam is overall better anywhere but in red-brown & grey forests. With Realtree if you get into the brush, you are invisable but for that matter you would also be invisable there if you were wearing a Hawaiian shirt, so what is the point?

 

Millitary cammies are good at breaking up overall shapes and the human form is what you need to hide.

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I would love to write a Magnum Opus on Camouflage but it would be pointless, fun but pointless.

 

Modern cammies have multiple origins the best and oldest of these is the gillie suit. It is strips of berlap sewn to jacket and pants with the ends shreaded to produce an overall hairy surface. If one lays down in the hay you are just a lump of hay, the ability to disrupt the overall shape of the human form is terrific.

 

Next the Swiss developed a pattern before WWII that the German Army adoped (called Splintertarn by collectors) and you would not be able to distenguish between it and a modern pattern:

 

http://thecombatstore.co.uk/shop/product.p...t=81&page=1

 

The Nazi SS developed a wide range of patterns with that as a start, most of the modern cammies are developed from these SS patterns.

 

The third was the Canadian CadPat from which all modern "digitial" patterns are derived.

 

The one thing that all of these have in common is the disrupt-the-form idea.

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Guest JamesG123

I am at a FOB with lots of different national uniforms and I have to admit that our ACUs look like crap compared to others... :(

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That it did and the French/Portugese Lizzard pattern which was exactly the same but smaller sploches. The material was a heavy canvas and was indestructable. I had a pair of Rhodesian pants made in 1956 that I played paintball in for years and in kept me from getting cut by briars when nothing else would.

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One interesting thing about the 1930s Swiss Splinter Pattern was that the material was printed on both sides:

 

http://militaria-net.co.uk/oscommerce/cata...plinterzelt.jpg

 

This idea allowed you to print a predominantly brown pattern one one side and a a predominantly green pattern on the other to get a truely reversable garmet or tent or whatever that would be lightweight and cheap to produce and would allow a less one pattern for all conditions.

 

The Waffen SS and USMC both used reversable uniforms and helmet covers in the latter stages of WWII.

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Wasn't the original USMC woodland uniform (ERDL or something?) reversible for autumn/summer?

 

AFAIK there were actually two different types of ERDL uniform produced, which are quite hard to tell apart unless you are directly comparing them. One has more brown and the other more green.

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AFAIK there were actually two different types of ERDL uniform produced, which are quite hard to tell apart unless you are directly comparing them. One has more brown and the other more green.

 

You got it. They were designated "summer" and "winter" patterns.

 

The "two-sided" USMC camouflage of WWII was briefly issued in '43. Scouts wore it a Tarawa, but it was found to be too hot. Except for helmet covers, the camo was dropped and the Corps went back to OD twill.

Edited by shep854
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Actually "Highland" and "Lowland" for the brown & green respectively for the ERDL patterns along with "Delta" pattern which became "Woodland" and used in the BDU.

 

ERDL was designed in the USA in 1948 and was a rip-off of the Leibermustertarn pattern developed by the Waffen SS. To be fair ERDL was a series of patterns for uniforms and combat vehicles. By changing one or two colors the same pattern could be used anywhere on Earth.

 

There were variations for snow, desert, woodland etc... like the M-48 here:

 

http://www.battletanks.com/images/M48A5-1.jpg

Edited by George Newbill
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One interesting thing about the 1930s Swiss Splinter Pattern was that the material was printed on both sides:

 

http://militaria-net.co.uk/oscommerce/cata...plinterzelt.jpg

 

This idea allowed you to print a predominantly brown pattern one one side and a a predominantly green pattern on the other to get a truely reversable garmet or tent or whatever that would be lightweight and cheap to produce and would allow a less one pattern for all conditions.

 

The Waffen SS and USMC both used reversable uniforms and helmet covers in the latter stages of WWII.

Actually, the W-SS had reversible smocks (Tarnjacke or Tarnhend) and helmet covers (Tarnhelmmuberzug) in three different patterns (Eich-Platanmuster, Rauchtarnmuster and Beringt-Eichenlaubmuster) *before* the war, all of which wre in verdant summer reversible to reddish brown autumn/winter shades. By the later stages had moved on to the single sided SS Erbsenmuster or "pea pattern" kit'. German Army camo kit was completely different with a splinter and raindrop pattern.

 

If you are going to write that magnum opus on camouflage uniforms then you need to do a bit more research, George. :)

 

BillB

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