More new camo uniforms?

[Galloglass]

RE: ACUs

 

Two things i can say about them (other than i hate'm.)

 

1) During the train up for my Iraqi PTT mission, i spent over a month at Camp Lejune. A good chunk of that time was spent on the (simply awesome) MOUT complex they have there...ferget the name .

During one evolution i positioned my SAW gunner in some rubble and sprinted away to check on something else. Not a minute later, i jog back to the vicinity of my SAW gunner and didn't see him. "GAWD Durnit" says I. "Lil SOB decided to go hang out with a buddy or something." I was about to get real pissed until i saw a red SOMETHING that didn't look like it belonged. Upon further inspection i realized it was the BFA on the end of the barrel! Sure as heck, my guy was there, all tucked into the rubble and damn near invisible to a cursory look. I missed him from about 10 meters away and i KNEW where he was. I was impressed. ACU works wonderfully in rubbled urban environments.

Now if we could only fight all our fights in rubbled concrete...we'd be good

 

2) After a week in the same set of ACUs (or any uniform for that matter) getting greasy nasty funky and icky, the base camo pattern stops mattering . Some of ya'll know what i mean

[nigelfe]

There's a long thread on arrse - QM about PECOC. There's some posts by guys who actually know what they are talking about being privy to real trials results.

 

One amusing story is that the Canadian digital cam that started the whole thing off was the result of a stuff up, the makers were sent the digitised pattern and zoomed it up for printing!

[Guest JamesG123]

There was a discussion sometime on camo patterns at another board and it was mentioned that the digital pattern was conceived to reduce the effectiveness of thermal imagers. I found that claim odd, and an article (I think Wikipedia) was shown to me that mentions it. Do such uniforms (CADPAT, MARPAT, etc etc) really have an effect on thermal imagers?

 

No not at all. Supposedly the justification/explination is that the squares line up with the pixel elements and "blend in". But in order to do that, the elements must be perfectly aligned at exactly the right distance. I've never seen it actually work. In my experiance, digital camo patterns are no better at obscuring in IR than organic shaped ones.

 

I would buy the story that it was an accident that someone thought looked "cool" first.

 

 

I say put everyone in ACU-cut ODgreen uniforms, and add lightweight camo smocks depending on the region the unit is deploying to. Moisture-wicking shirts as a base layer will keep everyone reasonably cool, especially since we are moving towards lighter body armor.

 

I think you are on to something. I've though of a a body armor similar to the Bohn system of armored padding for motorcyclists.

Basically its a meshy breathable jacket and pants that the armor panels are held and supported. On top of them go equipment and ammo pouches, and then a replaceable outer layer covers all with slots or openings to access the gear. You can supply not only different colors and patterns but also different weights and water resistance to accomodate weather conditions.

[Ivanhoe]

I say put everyone in ACU-cut ODgreen uniforms, and add lightweight camo smocks depending on the region the unit is deploying to. Moisture-wicking shirts as a base layer will keep everyone reasonably cool, especially since we are moving towards lighter body armor.

 

Rather than a regular camo smock, how about some kind of durable netting wrap? That way, all the under layers, from skivvies to rainwear, can be one or two base colors (say tan and flat dark earth). The netting would provide both coloration and texture. You could have a dozen different camo patterns in inventory, easy.

[Dawes]

The US went through WW2, Korea, and Vietnam with the great majority of personnel wearing plain green uniforms. I think Israel still uses them. A camo pattern uniform would admittedly offer better concealment in the right environment, but wouldn't monotone green (or maybe tan, gray, etc.) be acceptable as a general-purpose color?

[rmgill]

A camo pattern uniform would admittedly offer better concealment in the right environment, but wouldn't monotone green (or maybe tan, gray, etc.) be acceptable as a general-purpose color?

 

 

Field Grey?

 

 

[Steven P Allen]

How 'bout Butternut?

 

(Though I think the blues are more stylish )

[SCFalken]

Field Grey?

 

 

At some point, someone is going to have to "reclaim" grey and black from Hitler.

 

Falken

Edited June 18, 2009 by SCFalken

[SCFalken]

How 'bout Butternut?

 

(Though I think the blues are more stylish )

 

Khaki. Pith helmets replacing berets in garrison.

 

 

Falken

[SCFalken]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_trial_patterns

 

 

Falken

[Lampshade111]

Honestly it does not seem that bad.

 

 

[George Newbill]

I am still a big Multicam fan. One more thing the Tan/Black small splotches give the Multicam a tiger stripe effect at night.

[T19]

There's a long thread on arrse - QM about PECOC. There's some posts by guys who actually know what they are talking about being privy to real trials results.

 

One amusing story is that the Canadian digital cam that started the whole thing off was the result of a stuff up, the makers were sent the digitised pattern and zoomed it up for printing!

Where did you hear that story, urban legends?

 

CANPAD was developed over the years by Defense Research. It was designed using colour sat pictures of areas and merging and phasing so that the base colours showed no recognizable pattern

 

It is a copyrighted process that has been sold to the US Army and Marines.

[SCFalken]

Where did you hear that story, urban legends?

 

CANPAD was developed over the years by Defense Research. It was designed using colour sat pictures of areas and merging and phasing so that the base colours showed no recognizable pattern

 

It is a copyrighted process that has been sold to the US Army and Marines.

 

Pffft! That's the urban legend. Canada doesn't have satfeeds in their igloos.

 

 

 

Falken

Edited June 19, 2009 by SCFalken

[Corinthian]

James: Copy that. I found the claim odd and thought it was Sparky-esque BS because AFAIK thermal imagers can "see" because of the heat emanating from the subject, regardless of camo pattern. I'd understand if it were image intensifiers, but thermal and IR....

 

Honestly it does not seem that bad.

 

Holy smokes, that is effective!

[Guest JamesG123]

Of course it would be the same if the uniforms were DCU, Multicam, or any thing that wasn't hi-contrast like BDUs or the like.

 

Most human vision and recognition is cued off movement. Camo only works when stationary. So most fancy patterns even if were something weird that told the eyes to ignore it, is wasted most of the time.

[Archie Pellagio]

James: Copy that. I found the claim odd and thought it was Sparky-esque BS because AFAIK thermal imagers can "see" because of the heat emanating from the subject, regardless of camo pattern. I'd understand if it were image intensifiers, but thermal and IR....

 

Your friend may have been confusing that they are 'soaked' (treated) in a chemical to reduce IR signature, but that has nothing to do with the pattern, it could be a clown suit.

[thekirk]

Your friend may have been confusing that they are 'soaked' (treated) in a chemical to reduce IR signature, but that has nothing to do with the pattern, it could be a clown suit.

 

 

The reason they do the IR additive (which is to the actual dyestuff used in printing the pattern) has zipola to do with thermal imaging. The problem is that when viewed through an IR or passive night vision device, most fabric dyes stand out like a massive glowing ball of reflected light, which really stands out against the muted natural background colors of nature. The anti-IR dyes used actually do allow the patterns to be useful during the night, when viewed with active or passive NVDs. Thermal imagers, not relying on light wavelengths, do not "see" the pattern at all--just the heat energy of the target. If you want to camouflage against a thermal imager, you need to break up the heat signature with insulation layers and other things. Nothing you do with the anti-IR dyes is going to affect what's seen thru a thermal scope.

 

If you look at a uniform that isn't anti-IR treated, versus one that is, you'll really see the difference. We had a Brazilian Captain training with us back in the 1980s, and his uniform stood out like a proverbial sore thumb at night in the woods. BDUs? Not so much--the patterns were still there, and blended in about as well as they did in daylight. The Brazilian camo pattern was very effective during the day. At night, with NVGs? Horrible. He looked like a bright shiny blob in the NV scopes, and if you turned on the active IR lamps, it was ten thousand times worse. Blinding, even.

 

Also--If you take an anti-IR uniform and saturate it with starch, you effectively remove the benefit of the treatment. We ran some impromptu tests back in the day, and you almost had to wash the uniform twice in order to get all the starch out of it. There were also a bunch of UV brightener additives that many detergent manufacturers add to their formulas that have the same effect. There is a list of approved laundry soaps which don't have the UV brighteners in them that you're supposed to be using with the ACU, for what that little tid-bit is worth.

[nigelfe]

Pffft! That's the urban legend. Canada doesn't have satfeeds in their igloos.

Falken

 

 

A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.

Edited June 19, 2009 by nigelfe

[SCFalken]

A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.

 

Humor 101: you fail.

 

 

 

Falken

[shep854]

I've seen NVG video of troops in BDUs, and the black portions really stood out. That said, I am still trying to figure out where the "black does not exist in nature" remark comes from. I see LOTS of black outdoors.

[Ivanhoe]

Field Grey?

 

In the eastern woodlands of North America, at least in hardwood forest, a medium or light gray will work very well for much of the year. Even then, though, if you move from a spot choked with small oaks and elms to an area choked with ferns, gray will really suck. Pine is an odd thing, since a lot of pine species have a reddish tinge to their bark. A camo pattern that will let you blend in with a pine trunk will stand out if you're walking down a trail and backgrounded by general forest and dirt.

 

Of course, every camo has its area of excellence, for example Suburban Drab;

 

[T19]

A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.

 

nigelfe your ignorance is showing again...

 

Arrse is a British Army forum.

 

I was active Canadian Army during all the testing. We were given a video show on the new uniforms, the history of how it was developed by Defense Research, what was the process behind developing the CAMPAD Green that most of us use, and it was that process that was used to develop our Tan uniform presently used in the Sandbox BTW the develpment of that pattern was part of the reason we wore green when first deployed.

 

Until last year, I was working with one of the Defense Research Scientists that worked on the process... she was very proud of the work she did.

 

So sunshine, I stated my background.... whats your claim to fame other than some name and rumours on a foriegn military forum??

 

 

BTW Falken

And yes the igloos do have Satfeeds... its cable thats a bitch when the ice flows move

[George Newbill]

The Cadpat is the original Pixelated pattern from which all others are derived.

 

The Multicam pattern is overall pretty light compared to other patterns but the average is about the same as medium green which is known from USAF, US Army and Canadian tests to be pretty good across all situations.

 

I got a Cadpat top too and I'll see how that works tomorrow as well as the Multicam.

 

By the way spots work very well if you are stationary (sniper) but suck if you move, horizontal stripes like those on the French "tiger stripe" work fairly well even if you are in motion.

[Paul G.]