More new camo uniforms?

[FALightFighter]

All this "development" of new camouflage is essentially wasted for most troops. For 95% plus, a solid OD, foliage or coyote will work more than sufficiently. FOr the small minority (snipers, LRS, SF strat recon teams) that really NEED to be able to have the enemy stand close enough to piss on them without detection, they will have the capability to choose non-standard stuff that is most effective ina particular region anyway.

[Typhoid Maxx]

Dude, your missing the point - They look COOL.

[SCFalken]

Falken, who is that picture of? I'm assuming it isn't American troops from the rifles?

 

Chilean Army, IIRC.

 

May not actually be Multicam. There's an opinion that it is a very, very, very similar ("but for legal purposes, quite distinct!") Polish......tribute pattern.

 

Falken

[George Newbill]

FALight Fighter is right, that is exactly what my experience in Iraq was everybody had Desert DCUs, the snipers had Green BDUs and the Delta guys had "Developmental" cammies.

[SCFalken]

All this "development" of new camouflage is essentially wasted for most troops. For 95% plus, a solid OD, foliage or coyote will work more than sufficiently. FOr the small minority (snipers, LRS, SF strat recon teams) that really NEED to be able to have the enemy stand close enough to piss on them without detection, they will have the capability to choose non-standard stuff that is most effective ina particular region anyway.

 

For the majority of troops, camo uniforms may be as much a morale item (though no less important, for that) as a tactical aid.

 

Falken

[thekirk]

I hate to say it, but in some ways, all the various camouflage patterns are starting to resemble a modern version of the old Scots Highlands clan tartans.

 

I wonder how long it will be before there's the equivalent of the The Scottish Registry of Tartans for camouflage patterns. Which, completely blowing a gasket in my mind, is apparently an official arm of the UK's government!!!

 

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/

 

Suddenly, a few comments I've heard about how spending is out of control in Britain are snapping into context. Why the hell isn't this something a few daft hobbyists work out, on their own time and money?

 

In any event, camouflage patterns in uniforms are rapidly taking on aspects of the tartan, and filling some of the same social needs. When we're all using optical camouflage systems that automagically blend us in to surrounding terrain, I bet there's still going to be vestigal use of camouflage patterns for identification purposes. Or, something... Kinda the same way we still see features on dress uniforms that last had a practical use when we needed to carry spikes to spike cannon with...

[Corinthian]

Got it, you mean: "Insignia to identify Combatants vs Non-combatants for the purposes of the Geneva Conventions."

 

You really lost me at the Soldier vs Mercenary thing.

 

Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding George, I was going thru memory (which isn't great nowadays). It's been quite a while since I last studied International Law for the Bar.

[George Newbill]

Well first of all there is no such thing as international law in the first place, there are a few gentleman's agreements like the Geneva Conventions but they really do not hold the force of law in courts anywhere. More like military customs. What I find weird is that US citizens have been prosecuted in US Courts for doing things that are very clearly not illegal. The uniform thing, nothing requires you to have a uniform. What the GCs require is that if two signatory belligerent states are fighting that the Soldiers must be plainly identified, fighting in a unit subject to an officer. But wait if a third party not a signatory to the GCs joins in the GCs do NOT APPLY. So since when is the Taliban a signatory to the GCs? But wait now it gets weird Hitler grudgingly gave GC protections to some partisan groups but not to others. So spontaneous combatants can be given GC protections, sometimes.

 

There have been efforts to at the UN level to not give GC protections to Mercenaries but this is always vetoed by France and Spain. The French and Spanish Foreign Legions may be why.

Edited September 23, 2009 by George Newbill

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

=

On a separate note I picked up a German WWII sniper's smock in "Oak A" yesterday.

How much did that set you back?

[capt_starlight]

Wallaby Bob might know more details, but there was a pattern issued only in smock and poncho form from memory which was basically JG with large splotches of either very dark green or possibly black (You can see one or two guys briefly wear it in 'The Odd Angry Shot') which was an excellent pattern for jungle operations, you can still find a few of the raincoats in PNG occasionally with old fellas.

 

 

It was Black on "Jungle Green". I still have a bolt of the cloth from which the smocks (they were not raincoats) were made from. Found it in an old ordnance store being used to hold something (equally out of date) up. Had some pants made to match.

 

Then they went AusCam.....

[George Newbill]

I got the Oak-A sniper's smock for $30 you can find them on eBay for a little more than that but of much better quality, this one is a cheapie but it is nice to have.

[Paul G.]

It's official.

 

Army to Field New Uniforms for Afghanistan

 

Cant say I've heard of UCP-Delta. But apparently it is just the ACU pattern with a dark brown added or "coyote tan".

[Paul G.]

Here's the results of the Natick Labs test linked in the above article.

 

Best Urban:

1. Desert MARPAT

2. Desert Brush

3. Desert British

 

Best Desert:

1. Desert British

2. Syria

3. Desert MARPAT

 

Best Woodland:

1. China

2. Woodland MARPAT

3. Mossy Oak

 

Granted Urban is ME type urban with browns rather than rest of the world Urban with greys.

The ACU unitary pattern scored 8/12, 8/12, and 11/12 respective.

[Paul in Qatar]

I suppose, all-in-all, the exact pattern is not too important for the reasons outlined. Camouflage clothing can only do so much. It would, I think, be cheaper and somewhat useful for all the guys on one team to dress the same way. Too much time and trouble seems to have been spent on this minor issue.

 

(I, on the other hand am still in favor of my own camouflage scheme. Right sleeve one color, left sleeve another, right side front piece a third color, front left pants leg another, all assembled at random in the factory. Rifle butt one color, hand grips, top and bottom different colors. Add it all together in one huge blob of subdued colors.)

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

I got the Oak-A sniper's smock for $30 you can find them on eBay for a little more than that but of much better quality, this one is a cheapie but it is nice to have.

 

Ok, a repro then. If not, you got a good deal because I've seen the originals going for $2500 plus.

[George Newbill]

Of course reproduction, first nobody in their right mind pays $2500 for a wornout faded jacket when you can get a new bright jacket for $70.

[SCFalken]

 

The Mirage pattern is pretty good.

 

Falken

[George Newbill]

Mirage is okay but not much different from desert MarPat or DCU.

[Archie Pellagio]

It was Black on "Jungle Green". I still have a bolt of the cloth from which the smocks (they were not raincoats) were made from. Found it in an old ordnance store being used to hold something (equally out of date) up. Had some pants made to match.

 

Then they went AusCam.....

 

Dunno, but I have definitely, 110% seen it cut to form a poncho/raincoat thing.

Perhaps some civvy outfit copying the pattern or the same way you got your trousers I don't know, but it definitely exists.

 

Found a pic on the interweb too:

 

[cybermax]

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8168790@N04/s...57622345121545/

[Doug Kibbey]

So, my green dominat ERDl camo with nametags, unit markings, etc. would be worth how much, exactly? Bidder sign on here.

 

Or if you preferr, VN local-manufacturer Tiger stripe, complete with name tag, unit, patches, etc . Patches on both would be 101st. Eagle and Blackhorse, all name tag, U.S. Army and patches guaranteed period correct.

 

Some other esoteric items are negotiable. Every item hand-carried from RVN to US by owner. no repros.

 

some other esoteric items better discussed off-line.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

So, my green dominat ERDl camo with nametags, unit markings, etc. would be worth how much, exactly? Bidder sign on here.

 

Or if you preferr, VN local-manufacturer Tiger stripe, complete with name tag, unit, patches, etc . Patches on both would be 101st. Eagle and Blackhorse, all name tag, U.S. Army and patches guaranteed period correct.

 

Some other esoteric items are negotiable. Every item hand-carried from RVN to US by owner. no repros.

 

some other esoteric items better discussed off-line.

 

Doug,

 

You'd be very, very, very surprised. Go over to usmilitariaforum.com and check it out.

[shep854]

Regardless of what the geeks at Natick say, the ERDI cammies had BDUs beat, hands down. I wish I still had mine.

[George Newbill]

(Brown dominant) ERDL and Summer Weight BDUs are just about the same thing, with BDU splotch size bigger. I played paintball in the Hawaiian mountain jungles and wore (Green) ERDLs even though I had Summer and Winter BDUs. Hell I still have them, heavily modified to carry paintball tubes and CO2 cartriges.

[shep854]

In 1977, we were issued both brown and green cammies at OCS. The green were for spring/summer wear and the brown were for fall/winter. This issue was Corps-wide.