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Hello Everyone.

 

Well, I can't believe its 65 years ago since Normandy happened. I'm sure a lot of you had relatives who were there and if still living, still remember everything, especially the fallen. We lost one relatve on D-Day who died of wounds that day, and another (his brother inlaw, and my Uncle (Mom's brother) as I know some of you heard me talk about before, was one of the murdered Canadian soldiers. He was murdered June 8th in a field with a large group of his buddies. I'm thinking about both of my Uncles and others, as well as all the people who took part in Normandy. I've also been watching a lot of programs about it on the history channel. It always astounds me more every time I see or read something about that history just how horrendous and huge a collective undertaking that was, and how many were lost in those early days. I'm sure any program or movie doesn't come close to what the actual experiences were for the men who were there and what that was like.

 

I do know that almost every time I see a real Veteran "remembering" and talking about the experiences, I cry every time for them and for all the people who lost their lives and for what those experiences must have done to the survivors for the rest of their lives. You can see and feel the "freshness" of those memories and emotions and cry with them. I know I do. I can't help myself. It just comes.

 

I watched Band of Brothers yesterday, yet again, and it hasn't lost its power to effect me yet. Watching and hearing the Vets talking. My youngest daughter called me last night and I told her a bit about that series and a bit about Normandy ... and more about her Great Uncles who lost their lives there (and the others who all gave their ALL). She knows that a lot of her rights and freedoms exist because of soldiers making sure they do and even died trying to keep them safe.

 

I hope a world war like those two big ones never happen again ... but I think that's a high hope, more like a dream???

 

In honour of all who gave their lives ... Lest we Forget (though i know Tanknetters is nothing but people who know and remember, always, and thats still the glue that holds me to this site)

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I've wondered for a long time about this and decided to ask you folks in here.

 

I would just like to try and pin down which landing craft my Uncles would have been on when they landed on Juno Beach on D-Day. My two particular uncles I'd like to find out about were with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, C Company and I think were with the first wave of soldiers to hit the beach that day.

 

Am I grasping at straws to be able to identify the specific landing craft???

 

Thanks ;)

Edited by VenerableDamePW
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I've wondered for a long time about this and decided to ask you folks in here.

 

I would just like to try and pin down which landing craft my Uncles would have been on when they landed on Juno Beach on D-Day. My two particular uncles I'd like to find out about were with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, C Company and I think were with the first wave of soldiers to hit the beach that day.

 

Am I grasping at straws to be able to identify the specific landing craft???

 

Thanks ;)

 

Send a PM to BillB, or Rich, they may have a file to that level of of detail.

 

Mike

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I think I'll do that and thank you Mike.

 

It would be really nice to be able to ID the exact craft in photos if I come across them and know "THAT'S THE ONE" (your great Uncles were on etc) I've seen a few photos where the numbers on the crafts are visible but don't know what regiments/troops/company they were carrying unless there is a photo caption saying so with the details. There are a couple of photos of RWR's approaching the beach but I don't know if my Uncles were with that group of them etc. They had to come in in a few of them as there were too many troops to all be in one little landing craft is my thinking :)

 

Thanks again!

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I searched but couldn't come up with the profiles to PM them so I'll just post the info about my Uncle and if someone has records they can check and want to do that and let me know here or by PM then that will be good. This is not an urgent thing, just something I'd like to know so don't go out of your way looking for me please ;)

 

 

Landed Juno Beach June 6 in the first wave I was told ...

Rifleman Edward Smith H/42084 (Uncle Philip Genaille with the same company)

3rd Canadian Infantry Division

7th Infantry Brigade

 

Royal Winnipeg Rifles aka Little Black Devils

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I searched but couldn't come up with the profiles to PM them so I'll just post the info about my Uncle and if someone has records they can check and want to do that and let me know here or by PM then that will be good. This is not an urgent thing, just something I'd like to know so don't go out of your way looking for me please ;)

Landed Juno Beach June 6 in the first wave I was told ...

Rifleman Edward Smith H/42084 (Uncle Philip Genaille with the same company)

3rd Canadian Infantry Division

7th Infantry Brigade

 

Royal Winnipeg Rifles aka Little Black Devils

 

Sorry, I've been meaning to reply, but haven't had the chance yet. The Winnipegs landed with an assault echelon of D Company on the left (east) on MIKE GREEN and B Company on the right (west) on MIKE RED, west of Courseulles in the bend of the Seulles River. They were followed by eight surviving DD tanks of A Squadron, 6th CAR (Canadian Hussars) and then, arriving late, 1st and 2nd Troop of 26th Assault Squadron RE. C Company followed as a second wave with C company of the 1st Canadian Scottish attached on its right (A Company of the Winnipegs was in reserve and landed later).

 

Unfortunately it will probably be impossible to narrow down to a specific LCA for him. I could possibly tell you which assault ship he was on and thus which LCA Assault Flotilla may have carried him in, but that is probably the best I can do. Please let me know if I can steer you to any additional details. The best account is probably that given in http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/hi...=2&RfId=131 and http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/hi...=2&RfId=147 although details are scattered about in some other DHH reports available online.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Rich

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Yes, any new info at all always helps Rich, so thanks bunches :)

 

I guess I was mistaken that my Uncle was first wave then if you're saying C Coy came 2nd wave. I don't know where I got my info from as I've been researching and told things for a few years now, by lots of people and I've read lots too :D I didn't keep good notes, just have things willy nilly in files on my computer or just old threads to refer back to, so like finding a needle in a haystack if I want to search anything specific out again.

 

You said: "I could possibly tell you which assault ship he was on and thus which LCA Assault Flotilla may have carried him in, but that is probably the best I can do."

 

That would be great if you could tell me the ship and flotilla he was on so I can at least recognize them in photos I see online. By "flotilla" I assume that means a group of LCA's that would have carried these soldiers group.

 

I'll check out those other links you gave as well ;)

 

I wish I had been able to get to Selkirk to visit with Abby Cook (Albert Cook, an RWR Rifleman as he was willing to look at a group photo I have of the RWR's to help identify my Uncles face in it. It was C Coy taken exactly one year before D-Day while in the UK. Abby was one of the soldiers who gave a witness statement for the war crimes trials, sadly he passed away not so long ago. When I connected with him (his wife actually, he couldn't speak) he had had a number of strokes and couldn't speak properly but his wife would have translated for us. I really regret not being able to get there to meet him and give him my respects, and I'm sure he could have told me lots because he knew my uncle and he was there. I would have loved to have laid a huge heartfelt hug on that man!!!

 

I do have my Uncle Ed's service records but I don't think there is any info about the landings and such. Just basic whereabouts and dates (TOS and SOS and where/who with sort of notes)

 

BTW ... the group my Uncle was murdered with in that field on June 8th, Fontenay Les Pesnil Rd I think it is... were mostly RWR's but some were Nova Scotias I think, and some Queen's Own Rifles and 3rd Canadian Anti Tanks, Cameron Highlanders? I don't know if those regiments together helps you to know why they were together there and if they came in together at the same time, therefore same LCA's flotilla ... but I mention in case this helps narrow time and sector/place they landed.

 

BTW ... in a book that killing field event was likened to a "Malmedy Massacre" which is a reference to an earlier same kind of murders of another group in another time/place in the war (I don;t know the Maldmedy story)

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Yikes ... finding a needle in a haystack I think? EEK

 

"In all 107 Canadian ships and craft and 9,780 Canadian officers and

ratings took part in D Day operations, representing 5.5 percent of the total

naval assault forces involved. The L.C.Is. made 171 trips to the beaches, and

ferried 29,700 troops"

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Rich, those links are some amazing reading!!! I seem to be able to pick up a bit of the steps and path my uncle Ed did and went through from the Beach to June 8th in that field where his life was ended. I want to be able to write down the bones of his whole Normandy journey from the ship and water to where he was taken from us, step by step, as well as I can find out.

 

This is very personal for me, obviously. I had better get back to sorting out my info and organizing it on paper.

 

I didn't know about the operation "NEPTUNE" term/part, not that I can remember, so I'm still learning something new. I guess there will always be more details to find out. Got to love the net for how it can bring history out of the dark and inform people who would never otherwise learn anything.

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They were followed by eight surviving DD tanks of A Squadron, 6th CAR (Canadian Hussars)

 

Hi Rich,

 

As usual, that's amazing work. One small nit:

 

6 Canadian Armoured Regiment was the First Hussars , normally abbreviated as 1H, not the Canadian Hussars, or First Canadian Hussars.

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Here is one photo I see online lots with RWR's on their way to the beach ... I'm assuming that the "ship?" in the photo is the one they just came off of??? But I know there must have been many ships out of photo line releasing landing crafts and troops. My Uncle, as far as I can tell, isn't obvious in this pic so I haven't a clue if he was onboard that craft with these guys.

 

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=5303

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I think the hull number may be LC-1243. The "|" is the same size as the other numbers.

 

Thanks :)

 

I always totally love seeing that photo - its really awesome to see so many smiling/grinning waving soldiers ... and so sad knowing that so many of those soldiers lost their lives so soon after. Too many.

 

Reading the numbers of soldiers, in total, who took part in the Invasion is so mindboggling to try and comprehend what a huge collective coordination and undertaking it all was. Must have been so totally chaotic and crazy ... LOUD ... AND BUSY on the beach that day. I guess you had to be there to really know what it was, and what it was like. Hearing about it and seeing pictures of bits here and there can't possibly come close to letting people who weren't there get a realistic sense of it. And then I also imagine that there was just too much of everything going on and people were too busy (thank god) to get the whole impact all at once or react when it was all coming down. Too much to take in. Too much to describe hey?

 

Geez.

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Amazing ... browsing I came across this story online from the Legion Magazine, memories of a 14th Field Ambulance soldier. I say "amazing" because I've always wondered "what/who" German POWS were sent to Canada. This story is particularly interesting to me because of my Uncle was murdered by 12th SS Hitlerjugend .... and it so happens my Dad stayed and served on the homefront (not qualified for overseas or something) as a PPCLI Sargent and instructor at Shilo Base plus I was told by his sister that he also was sometimes sent to Halifax to pick up German POWS and to take and deliver them to various spots in Canada. It impossible for me NOT to wonder if by some ironic twist that my dad met and handled the actual Hitlerjugends responsible for my Uncles death. (I don't think it was ever officially proven who exactly ordered the murders (Mohnke) or which specific HJ's pulled the triggers, but I still wonder. The world can be a very small place sometimes and strange synchronicity happens all the time. That would be so weird.

 

I wondered what became of the German boy of 16 or so, a fanatic from the 12th S.S. Panzer Div.—the Hitler Youth. He came to us with a wound in his leg, and because he could speak English I told him I thought it strange he was going where I would like to go—to Canada (but as a prisoner of war)—while I was heading to where he would like to go—to Germany. He sat up and sneered. “You’ll never get to Berlin!”

 

“Yes we will,” I said. “And we will be there in a year.” And we were.

 

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/index.php...sting-memories/

Edited by VenerableDamePW
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I think the hull number may be LC-1243. The "|" is the same size as the other numbers.

 

That's LCT 243. LCT = Landing Craft Tank. Thanks for the kudos, sorry about messing up First Hussars, I'll try to remember and fix it if needs be in the manuscript when I get the galley proofs. I hope I can take some more time with this later, but must get to work now.

 

BTW, I was unable to open the other photo for some reason.

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Yes, thanks Seahawk, I did. That's an original newspaper clipping photo they used for his MIA notice. I was able to upload it to the virtual Memorial site, and the site admin also updated and corrected some errors in the site for me after I got my Uncle's records and could send them "proof" of his birth date and age at death. I never did find out what date or issue of the newspaper that that notice was in but after all these years (since 2003???) someone, a stranger out of the blue, looked me up to send me the notice when he came across it written up right beside his own Uncle's notice!!! He remembered my research and found me just to do this for me and my Uncle. Amazing!!! I now have the newspaper edition and page so I can order a copy one day when I can afford to. Ain't that sumthin??? That just happened recently!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

For the record, I'm really glad I started this thread in here and it's going this way, as it's lit a fire under me to get me moving on reviewing info from here and there and I've been putting bits in chronological order. I think you could call it "finally building the chronological skeleton of my Uncle's story" ... once I have those bits in place then I can get to work on writing it up. Part of the reason I'm so disorganized and slow with it all is I've had several major moves and life (and health) disruptions so I haven't been in a research notes organized setup since probably 2004. Everything has been willy nilly. Maybe I'm back on track and on a roll now :)

 

You all have NO idea how many people have helped me, or the many ways they did, and still do, since I started this. Talk about meeting incredible people and kindnesses (mostly) ... both virtual and in person. But I think I'm preaching to the choir in places like this/these forums. Some people may think I'm a total basketcase and promote that idea, but whether I am or not, thats irelevant and those people don't have to talk to me, and none of that stops me from running with whats really important to me and being sincere about that and if I come across like an idiot, oh well. I'm not alone in here then ... I've joined a club here :D

 

Back to Normandy 1944, the 65th anniversary has just happened and a lot of our soldiers buried in France have just had visitors who were there to pay their respects and honour them ... a lot of them being their buddies, 65 years later. Some I consider friends of mine who stopped by to visit my Uncles, amongst others. I'm waiting to hear all about it.

 

(I re-read some mentions about the landings by the RWR's but will have to read them again tomorrow as I was too tired to absorb after reading through so much all night. I noticed there's actually a whole lot of info that I had forgotten so I'll review threads again so I can try and avoid asking questions I already have answers for if only I reviewed info better)

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Yes, thanks Seahawk, I did. That's an original newspaper clipping photo they used for his MIA notice. I was able to upload it to the virtual Memorial site, and the site admin also updated and corrected some errors in the site for me after I got my Uncle's records and could send them "proof" of his birth date and age at death. I never did find out what date or issue of the newspaper that that notice was in but after all these years (since 2003???) someone, a stranger out of the blue, looked me up to send me the notice when he came across it written up right beside his own Uncle's notice!!! He remembered my research and found me just to do this for me and my Uncle. Amazing!!! I now have the newspaper edition and page so I can order a copy one day when I can afford to. Ain't that sumthin??? That just happened recently!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Did I count that right? Nine kids? Wow. Quite a family.

 

So have you checked with the crew at Maple Leaf Up yet? They are the gang to go for on all questions related to Canadian forces in the war.

 

Part of my problem in answering your questions is that I haven't been able to track down complete landing tables for JUNO yet, unlike SWORD, GOLD, OMAHA, and UTAH. So I have pretty complete knowledge of the vessels that took part as Force J and how it was organized, but I don't always know what troops were loaded or landed on which ship. For example, the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade Group was transported primarily as part of Landing Group J-1 and specifically on Group J.314 LSI (1st and 2nd Divisions) consisting of:

 

Frigate: HMS Lawford (F) (ex-USN DE 516)

1st LSI Division:

LSI(H) SS Invicta (510th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

LSI(H) SS Isle of Thanet (505th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

LSI(H) SS Mecklenberg (511th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

LSI(M) HMCS Prince Henry (528th Assault Flotilla – 8 LCA: 736, 850, 856, 925, 1021 (snk),

1033, 1371, and 1372 (snk 7 Jun)) (Canadian Scottish)

LSI(H) SS Duke of Argyll (517th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

2nd LSI Division:

LSI(H) SS Ulster Monarch (521st Assault Flotilla – 5 LCA)

LSI(H) SS Canterbury (509th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

LSI(H) SS Laird’s Isle (516th Assault Flotilla – 6 LCA)

LSI(L) MV Llangibby Castle (557th Assault Flotilla – 18 LCA)

LSI(M) HMS Queen Emma (526th Assault Flotilla – 8 LCA)

MGB 312, 316 and 324

(2 USCG Cutter)

Escorts (attached from Force E):

DD: Venus

DE (Hunt Class): HMS Stevenstone and FFN La Combattante

 

As you can see I have only found specific information so far for HMCS Prince Henry and the Canadian Scottish. But even there not all the Canadian Scottish were on the Prince Henry; that's ten LSI (Landing Ship Infantry) of various flavors with 75 LCA to haul three infantry battalions, brigade headquarters, and bits and pieces of other attached units (engineers, beach battalions, service troops, and others). Each LCA could carry a platoon so in theory was plenty for the nominally 36 infantry platoons of the three battalions, but in practice each company was allowed five or six, essentially 20-22 per battalion (plus their vehicles and heavier weapons came in on LCM or LCT).

 

To top that off the actual landing craft were only designated in the plan by what was known as an LTIN, a Landing Table Index Number that showed where they fit into the plan. That had nothing to do with the actual pennant number of the vessel and was usually assigned at the last moment of loading, which for the LCA was when the troops embarked on the morning of D-Day. So if we can figure out which LSI C Company was on (and bits of the company may have been dispersed over more than one LSI) we might be able to narrow it down to one of probably six LCA in one of the LCA flotillas, unless shes the Llangibby Castle, which was a converted prewar liner and acrried probably three companies. See the problems?

 

I'll see what else I can ferret out. My next book may look at the NEPTUNE forces so its time I go back and do another review of what I have. But you may have to go yourself to DHH and check the battalion and brigade war diaries yourself.

 

Cheers!

 

Rich

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Holy cow Rich, you have totally outdone yourself here!!! Please don't go too out of your way in time and efforts on this for me as I'm feeling guilty here! I'm very SLOW to do my parts....

 

Yes ... lots of kids! Granny and Granpa Joe (Moms parents) really liked each other :lol: People tended to have lots of kids back then, for sure. In Uncle Ed's records he notes that Uncle Elmer as overseas when Uncle Ed enlisted. I know Uncle Bill (William) and and I think Uncle Sid (Sydney) also served and I think they went overseas too. That "Genaille" mentioned beside Aunty Annies name was her husband, Uncle Ed's brother in law who died of wounds on D-Day in Normandy. All the siblings, and Granny and Grandpa too of course, are all passed away now, for a long time. I'm of the oldest generation living now of that side of the family ... and it seems that I, who have been far from family since age 11, am the only one of my siblings who knows anything at all about family history and tree AND THEY NEVER LEFT BACK HOME! I'm hoping to find out about the other brothers, who and where they served with, in time. I can't find the others in the RWR nominal rolls for WW2 (but did find my Dads brother Oskar who was with RWR's too) The others must have served with other regiments.

 

Maple Leaf Up ... was a huge resource and help to me. The people in there rock, big time, and went out of their way to help me and have helped me as much as possible. I'll love them all forever for that. Truly!

 

In reviewing a 17 page thread last night I rediscovered some info and links in it that will probably help me narrow things down about this threads questions, or maybe even give me the answers, so before you go crazy-er with searching, unless you have any immediate easy quick answers at your fingertips, please don't make extra work for yourself. I will review what I can and if I'm still stumped I'll post that here.

 

My uncle .... I think he was in 13th, 14th, or 15th Platoon but don't know which one as yet. I think I spotted reference to a ship with "Castle" in it as well, but again, I'll have to properly read over the infos again. I was up all night last night and too tired to absorb the info by the time I found it.

 

As far as my Uncle in the landings go ... I'm wondering though, if 2nd Diviion and LSI(L) MV Llangibby Castle (557th Assault Flotilla – 18 LCA) could be the right ones? ... at any rate, by all you say, its one helluva a job to try and pinpoint specifics of soldiers and landing crafts etc... wow!

 

What is: DHH ???

 

Thanks loads for all your help Rich and thats all for this one ... time to fill my coffee cup again :)

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For the record, regards my uncle Ed, for a long time he was just listed as "missing" then about June 1945 they upgraded that to KIA. The war crimes trials of Dec 1945 mentioned his name I think as one of the soldiers who may have been executed as a POW ... it wasn't until about 1985 or 1995 (I forget which year) that he was finally and officially listed as one of the murdered POWS in the RWR's records I think. I forget what the problem was but there was some error that he wasn't officially listed as one of those soldiers.

 

I think it was Howard Margolian who wrote Conduct Unbecoming who found out about the mistake, so that it was corrected, when he was investigating the murders and that his book was the first time my Uncle Ed was ever officially written up and mentioned as being one of these soldiers. The RWR's then upgraded the Audrieau Memorial to add Uncle Ed's name to it. Grandpa never knew the story or the outcome as he died on what would have been Uncle Ed's 22nd birthday on Sept 17, 1945, just a couple or few months after he finally received confirmation from the Forces that his son was officially confirmed killed (KIA) ... Grandpa died before he knew what really happened to his son. Granny died in 1961 and didn't know much more I think. Normandy took their son and their son-inlaw in Normandy within 2 days of each other.

 

So much information and details took SO long to come out about Uncle Ed. Well, now we know his story and in that way (me and whoever I tell) a form of justice and proper repect and honouring can be given to my Uncle. At long last. He was so lost and forgotten for so long and by so many it seems.

 

BTW ... I was reminded that a lot of boxes forensics evidences for the soldiers went missing way back when ... what happened to those boxes? Where did they go? Where are they? There was so much in them apparently. What though? I don't know ... things like bullets taken from the bodies, witness reports??? ... and whatever else they collect for these things I guess. I wonder if these evidences would have made a difference in the outcomes of the trials? I guess people will always wonder about that?

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What is: DHH ???

 

Thanks loads for all your help Rich and thats all for this one ... time to fill my coffee cup again :)

 

You're welcome. DHH is the Directorate of History and Heritage of the Canadian Forces. In this case though I should have said you need to look at Libraries and Archives Canada. They hold the war diaries. Go to http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealo...-909.009-e.html Unfortunately only the First World War Diaries are in part available online, but you should find information on visiting the Archives there.

 

Cheers!

 

rich

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Thanks Rich ... you've pointed me in the right direction then :) I'll head that way ... and I live in BC, a few Provinces from the Archives so can't drop in and will have to find whatever I can freely find via online sources. Maybe there is a way I can find out whats in the WW2 diaries though, through my connections ...

 

I found this note to me from May 2004!!! I'm not sure if the note meant that my Uncle would specifically have been on THAT ship, but he was with C Coy, so I'm assuming it could be the right ship and the point of this note to me back then, but he said A OR C coy ... so could have been A coy was on it and not C with my uncle. Time will tell I guess ;)

 

"Troops from either "A" or "C" Companies, Royal Winnipeg Rifles embarking on the L.S.I. (Landing Ship Infantry) H.M.S. Llangby Castle, at Southampton - 2 June 1944."

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I found this note of where they landed ... so does this refer to "Mike RED" sector???

 

"The 7th Brigade – comprised of the Regina Rifles, the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, the Canadian Scottish Regiment and DD tanks of the 1st Hussars (6th Canadian Armoured Regiment) - would land between Bernieres and Graye."

 

http://canada-at-war.suite101.com/article....ivision_on_dday

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