Night-fighting Panthers

[ShotMagnet]

A friend wants to do an ASL scenario set in the Ardennes, at night, with IR-equipped Panthers taking on a column of Shermans. I scoffed, then found a link to a page which talked about just such an action. I'm still unconvinced, the page didn't cite a reference, but I know that someone here either knows or can point to a source, or both.

 

Ancillary question, how effective were the Panther IR sights?

 

 

Shot

[Guest JamesG123]

In a land of blind men, the one eyed man is king.

[mkenny]

No IR Panthers in The Bulge. It is POSSIBLE that a very small number of these Panthers (4?) MIGHT have seen action in the West in 1945. That's about it.

Once the Western Allies discovered IR was being used they would have issued the IR detectors they had stockpiled. Any IR source would have been detected and destroyed.

Edited January 8, 2009 by mkenny

[Ssnake]

Ancillary question, how effective were the Panther IR sights?

 

As far as I know the sight was to be operated by the vehicle commander who would then have to give directions to the gunner. I heard, there are both enthusiastic reports from WW2 users, and scathing rejections, so with a bit of selective citing one can support either opinion.

 

 

I guess, one possible way to handle it tactically would be that the commander uses the scope to check out noises that he might hear as a listening post, and instead of firing a flare the commender would use the IR sight, then eventually give a command to have the gunner orient in the approximate direction of an eventual target before then firing a flare. That would minimize the use of flares which tend to give away your position, and minimize the time to react for an enemy. So, I guess it gives you an edge in night ambushes for the first two or three shots to be fired, and afterwards it's just like things were before.

 

Also, let's not forget that the effective range of these IR scopes can have hardly exceeded 200 or 300m at that time. In the 70s after thirty years of development you would hardly see beyond 500m.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Ssnake

[DKTanker]

As far as I know the sight was to be operated by the vehicle commander who would then have to give directions to the gunner. I heard, there are both enthusiastic reports from WW2 users, and scathing rejections, so with a bit of selective citing one can support either opinion.

Getting the azimuth correct, at relatively close ranges (100 meters or so) probably wasn't an issue but the correct elevation would have been a horse of another color.

[ShotMagnet]

...the sight was to be operated by the vehicle commander who would then have to give directions to the gunner.

There are pictures of vehicles with IR gear protruding from what I assume to be the gunner's sight, though as mentioned the effective range of these devices probably limited seriously who they might engage.

 

 

Shot

[philgollin]

Even some British units had IR viewers to mount on their vehicles in 1945, so clearly any advantage they had didnt last long.

 

There were many versions of the "Tabby" equipment available - mainly monocular observation and monocular and binocular for driving. The observation ones were used on a SMALL scale for special raids and the driving versions were supposedly quite widely used by late 1944 for ASSISTING night time supply. The US had "sniperscope" equipment - I don't know how widespread that was.

 

The German use of large IR searchlights would have beeneasily detected. How one might counter that I don't know.

 

See here (I hope) ;

 

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewt...ds&start=15

 

.

[KingSargent]

There were many versions of the "Tabby" equipment available - mainly monocular observation and monocular and binocular for driving. The observation ones were used on a SMALL scale for special raids and the driving versions were supposedly quite widely used by late 1944 for ASSISTING night time supply. The US had "sniperscope" equipment - I don't know how widespread that was.

 

.

I do not think the M3 Carbine with IR scope got into action before VE-Day. In fact I don't think any got to troop hands during WW2. If I could find:( my M1 Carbine reference book I could be more authoritative.

[George Newbill]

IR panthers were another one of those stupid nazi pet tricks to come out exactly to damn late to do a bit of good.

 

All of that cool stuff eventually showed up in combat over the next two decades.

 

All of the post-war Soviet tanks had active IR but I am unaware of it being used successfully anywhere ever.

[mkenny]

IR panthers were another one of those stupid nazi pet tricks to come out exactly to damn late to do a bit of good.

 

Every nation had IR equipment. Even the Russians has night driving aids. before WW2. Every other nation rejected it as impractical for combat situations and it was kept behind the front and on 2nd line transport. Germany was the only one who tried to get it on tanks ect and it proved impossible to get it to work properly beyond the first shot.

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/Tabby02.pdf

 

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/Tabby01.pdf

Edited January 9, 2009 by mkenny

[Luckyorwhat]

Did the IR illuminator not have any visible glow at all?

[DKTanker]

Did the IR illuminator not have any visible glow at all?

Not if the light is properly filtered.

[Kurt L]

Back in the '70's we had searchlights on out M60's that shone both white and IR light. With white light you could pick out targets to about 1,000 meters, but quite a bit less with IR, maybe 600-800 if you were lucky. These were very large lights, I don't know the output of the IR lights that were available in 1944, but if they were like headlights, I doubt if they would be useful much beyond 100 meters.

 

It is much more difficult to make out targets in IR light than in white light or through a "starlight scope" night vision device (we got them on the M60A3's in 1979.) I have never used thermal sights so I can't compare them.

[Burncycle360]

Back in the '70's we had searchlights on out M60's that shone both white and IR light. With white light you could pick out targets to about 1,000 meters, but quite a bit less with IR, maybe 600-800 if you were lucky. These were very large lights, I don't know the output of the IR lights that were available in 1944, but if they were like headlights, I doubt if they would be useful much beyond 100 meters.

 

It is much more difficult to make out targets in IR light than in white light or through a "starlight scope" night vision device (we got them on the M60A3's in 1979.) I have never used thermal sights so I can't compare them.

 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92396