Gaza ground op

[seahawk]

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Crazy, democracies should support this action because it is a democracy fighting Evil, that wants to distort democracy and wants to kill based on race, religion or ethnicity alone. Had Hamas played nice, and stopped being idiots, they would have had peace.

 

On the other hand, how could a government democratically elected by idiots not be idiots? Or, to put it another way...

 

See, Egypt is a nation of 75 million people, the vast majority of whom are poor, unhappy, and strongly support the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas is actually the palestinian branch of that same organization). The current regime is pretty much the only thing keeping the Brothers from taking power and turning Egypt into a huge version of Gaza, but with modern american weapons.

 

... and it has to do it through decidedly undemocratic means. Democracy just ain't the form of government that can produce anything down there that the Western civilization may remotely like

[zakk]

Neutral doctors in Gaza are reporting very difficult at local hospitals.

As the only international doctors in Gaza now are the two Norwegians Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, and as Mads Gilbert has been on most international TV-channels by now, I would like to point out that these doctors are not "neutral" in any way. Mads Gilbert is a former member of the AKP-ml ("The workers communist party - marxist leninists"), now member of the party Rødt ("Red", the "regular" communist party), long time supporter of the Palestinian "cause", and last but not least, he supported the terrorist attacks in USA 9/11. If he didnt do such a good work as a doctor in Gaza, I would say that he is amongst the lowest forms of life. Now he is just a good doctor who has no grasp of reality whatsoever.

 

And to label him as a "neutral doctor"... Excuse me when I'm out back puking...

[Paul in Qatar]

Of course. Keep puking until we let some reporters in to see what is going on.

 

CNN is reporting Israeli shells may have wounded 30 or so people near school. The Bad Guys were firing mortars from the school.

[zakk]

Of course. Keep puking until we let some reporters in to see what is going on.

In the meantime, good luck with the "reporting" provided by your "neutral" terrorist supporter.

[Paul in Qatar]

So you're saying the hospitals in Gaza are not stressed? You have a source for this?

[m4a1]

No, as a matter of course, but those data may be significantly exaggerated.

[Sardaukar]

According to past experiences, it is significally exaggerated. Nothing new..remember the "Jenin Massacre"?

[Gunguy]

Paul, it is not up to the Israelis to support the Gaza hospitals etc. That land is run by Hamas, they have to supply their own medical supplies and other needs. If Israel supplies anything, they are being idiots and cutting their own throats (as they usually do). The electricity needs to stay off for another 60 days minimum. Israel needs to make the election of Hamas the worst thing that ever happened to the Pals. They should be so poor and so out of food, etc that they curse the name of Hamas. THEN, Israel would be finally taking care of the mess....IMHO of course.

[Sardaukar]

Indeed, Israel has no obligation to support "enemy state" called Gaza. THEY decided to elect HAMAS, HAMAS decided to do what they always do, and "Gazitans"are now enjoying the consequences.

[crazyinsane105]

Paul, it is not up to the Israelis to support the Gaza hospitals etc. That land is run by Hamas, they have to supply their own medical supplies and other needs. If Israel supplies anything, they are being idiots and cutting their own throats (as they usually do). The electricity needs to stay off for another 60 days minimum. Israel needs to make the election of Hamas the worst thing that ever happened to the Pals. They should be so poor and so out of food, etc that they curse the name of Hamas. THEN, Israel would be finally taking care of the mess....IMHO of course.

 

That happens to be the most hilarious mistake people tend to make in the Middle East. If we pound them hard enough, they'll curse so and so. The opposite tends to happen every damn time. Hamas will simply come out stronger than before if they aren't destroyed...and no, they won't be. Its easy to blow up buildings and what not, its impossible to change an ideology with weapons. Hamas isn't just a group, its an ideology. And to destroy an ideology....ah wait, you actually can't destroy an ideology or an idea with bombs...

Edited January 6, 2009 by crazyinsane105

[Tzefa]

its impossible to change an ideology with weapons. Hamas isn't just a group, its an ideology. And to destroy an ideology....ah wait, you actually can't destroy an ideology or an idea with bombs...

 

Yes, absolutely. WWII is a great example of that.

[Guest JamesG123]

In a way he is right. If the Allies had packed up and gone home after militarily defeating Germany, Nazi fascism might have persisted. Likewise if the US had accepted less than unconditional surrender from the Japanese, they might still have delusions of a divine Empire to this day.

Edited January 6, 2009 by JamesG123

[thekirk]

...ah wait, you actually can't destroy an ideology or an idea with bombs...

 

You can, however, destroy its adherents with them. Quite handily, too.

 

It's been done successfully, many times, down the years. How many adherents does Ba'al have these days? Is the Old Man of the Mountain still working out of Alamut? Are there a lot of Buddhists left in Afghanistan? Does Iran have a significant Zoroastrian community? How many Mensheviks are left in the former Soviet Union?

 

Ideologies are easy to kill. You just have to aim at the believers, not the books. Oh, and be thorough, too. Rome in Carthage thorough.

 

Question is, are the Israelis willing to grasp the nettle?

 

For the time being, it appears not. One day, they won't be, or... They won't be around, themselves. I don't see Hamas or Hezbollah ever acquiescing to Israel's right to exist. Hasn't happened in my lifetime, probably won't ever happen. Compromise does not seem to be in the Palestinian value system.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

The Muslims did quite a fine job of destroying many ideologies and ideas with scimitars, amongst other things.

 

Ideologies that are based on national virility, power, destruction and supremacy (the German and Japanese ideologies in WWII, various radical Islamists today to include Hamas) are particularly vulnerable to having their ideology discredited by defeat and humiliation.

 

That happens to be the most hilarious mistake people tend to make in the Middle East. If we pound them hard enough, they'll curse so and so. The opposite tends to happen every damn time. Hamas will simply come out stronger than before if they aren't destroyed...and no, they won't be. Its easy to blow up buildings and what not, its impossible to change an ideology with weapons. Hamas isn't just a group, its an ideology. And to destroy an ideology....ah wait, you actually can't destroy an ideology or an idea with bombs...

[Rod]

Now a moment for an update on world reactions:

 

French TV claims photos from 2005 showed damage from Israel's Gaza operation

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053225.html

 

French public television network France 2 on Tuesday revealed they had aired photographs that allegedly showed destruction caused by the Israel Air Force during Operation Cast Lead, which were in fact taken during a different incident in 2005, one in which Gaza civilians were killed by an explosion caused by militants in the Strip.

 

The footage aired on Channel 2 on Tuesday afternoon showed dozens of dead bodies, including Hamas gunmen and citizens, which the channel said were killed by an IAF bombing raid on January 1st. It later came to light that the channel had instead aired footage of the devastation caused after a truck full of explosives blew up in the Jabaliya Refugee Camp. news editor at France 2 told Le Figaro Tuesday that they had "made a mistake by airing those pictures, which he said depict events from 2005

 

Yeah, yeah...sure...soon we might expect French TV to show the mushroom clouds from Hiroshima and claim that the IDF has nuked Gaza.

 

Venezuelan President Chavez: Gaza operation is a Palestinian 'holocaust'

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053454.html

 

Last update - 02:36 07/01/2009

Venezuelan President Chavez: Gaza operation is a Palestinian 'holocaust'

By Reuters

 

Venezuela expelled the ambassador to Israel on Tuesday in protest over the offensive in Gaza only hours after leftist President Hugo Chavez called the attacks a Palestinian "holocaust."

 

The socialist Chavez, a harsh critic of Israel and the United States, in recent years has frequently withdrawn Venezuela's diplomatic envoys amid bilateral disputes and last year kicked out the U.S. ambassador over a conflict involving allied Bolivia.

 

The OPEC nation's Foreign Ministry said in a statement that Israel's campaign constituted "flagrant violations of International Law" and the use of "state terrorism."

 

"For the reasons mentioned above, the government of Venezuela has decided to expel the ambassador of Israel and part of the personnel of the Embassy of Israel," the statement said.

 

The Israeli embassy did not respond to phone calls requesting comment.

 

Chavez in 2006 threatened to break ties with Israel over its military campaign in Lebanon in a war of words that led both nations to withdraw their envoys.

 

On Monday he accused Washington of poisoning the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to destabilize the Middle East and justify U.S.-backed Israeli incursions into Arab countries.

 

Israel is under international pressure to reach a ceasefire with Hamas militants and halt an offensive that has killed nearly 600 Palestinians, including more than 40 in a UN school sheltering civilians.

 

"The Holocaust, that is what is happening right now in Gaza," Chavez said in televised comments earlier on Tuesday.

 

"The president of Israel at this moment should be taken to the International Criminal Court together with the President of

the United States."

 

And he knows it is a Holocaust because he is a student of what happened to the Jews from 1933-1945?

[Kenneth P. Katz]

It is important to face the reality of Hamas, because denying their reality removes the justification for Israel's actions.

 

A bloodthirsty genocidal gang.

What a fine bunch of people -- I would just love have them as my neighbors.

[Husar]

As the only international doctors in Gaza now are the two Norwegians Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, and as Mads Gilbert has been on most international TV-channels by now, I would like to point out that these doctors are not "neutral" in any way. Mads Gilbert is a former member of the AKP-ml ("The workers communist party - marxist leninists"), now member of the party Rødt ("Red", the "regular" communist party), long time supporter of the Palestinian "cause", and last but not least, he supported the terrorist attacks in USA 9/11. If he didnt do such a good work as a doctor in Gaza, I would say that he is amongst the lowest forms of life. Now he is just a good doctor who has no grasp of reality whatsoever.

 

2 years of blockade mixed with intermittent bombing before the current massacre and you'd have to be pretty stupid not to acknowledge that the hospitals (if they can still be called that) are barely functioning.....why deny the f-in obvious?

 

This is a punitive operation pure and simple.

 

I came across the following on a blog which I think is an excellent comparison:

 

Gaza ghetto = Warsaw ghetto

Tsahal = Waffen SS

 

except the Israelis (unlike the SS) seem to have lost their martial spirit and nowadays fight like panzies. Almost 2 weeks have passed and the most powerful Army in the ME still can't defeat a bunch of teenagers armed with slingshots and a few rusty AKs and RPGs.

 

And to label him as a "neutral doctor"... Excuse me when I'm out back puking...

 

I've gone beyond puking reading some of the comments here....

[Bloody]

2 years of blockade mixed with intermittent bombing before the current massacre and you'd have to be pretty stupid not to acknowledge that the hospitals (if they can still be called that) are barely functioning.....why deny the f-in obvious?

 

This is a punitive operation pure and simple.

 

I came across the following on a blog which I think is an excellent comparison:

 

Gaza ghetto = Warsaw ghetto

Tsahal = Waffen SS

 

except the Israelis (unlike the SS) seem to have lost their martial spirit and nowadays fight like panzies. Almost 2 weeks have passed and the most powerful Army in the ME still can't defeat a bunch of teenagers armed with slingshots and a few rusty AKs and RPGs.

I've gone beyond puking reading some of the comments here....

I'm invoking Godwin's Law on this one

 

Yes, the Jews were rocketing German cities and exploding in German buses etc... a 1:1 comparison.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Bloody

[Paul in Qatar]

I'm invoking Godwin's Law on this one

 

Seconded. Mister Chairman, I move the question.

[Unreal John]

Since somebody else has already descended to analogies, the less irrational defenders of Hamas (the ones who notice that Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israel since the Israelis gave up the Gaza colonies) have been reminding me of the family members of the guys on the downrange end of so many police shootings. "Why did they have to shoot to kill? They could have just shot him in the leg, or maybe Tasered him. He only had a knife!"

[Guest JamesG123]

Gaza ghetto = Warsaw ghetto

Tsahal = Waffen SS

 

Ah, its nice to hear from the sites token anti-semite/moron...

 

 

Venezuelan President Chavez: Gaza operation is a Palestinian 'holocaust'

 

He's just kissing his new buddy Akmadidajad's ass and dancing to Iran's sheet music. Not much of a surprise there.

Edited January 7, 2009 by JamesG123

[DKTanker]

Maybe, just maybe, had HamaSS spent the same energy keeping the greenhouses going, instead of firing rockets at civilians, and had used the money given to them over the years to build...oh, I don't, a desalinization plant and a couple of power plants, the current operation, punative or not, wouldn't now be happening. IOW, maybe, just maybe, had HamaSS and its subjects become good neighbors, Egypt would have lifted its blockade of Gaza with hopes that Israel would in the future.

Edited January 7, 2009 by DKTanker

[KingSargent]

IDF has captured about 50 or a bit less Hamas members so far I believe. They're treated as terrorists - taken into a filtration camp set up just outside of Gaza first, and from there on will go into israeli prisons, presumably to be exchanged for Shalit, or just released back into the wild as part of an agreement or as a 'good will gesture', at some point in the future.

Release them into the middle of the Negev with no feet and a canteen full of Clorox.

[KingSargent]

I'm just hoping the IDF gets done before Obamessiah is sworn in as POTUS on his Koran and pulls US forces from Iraq to support Hamas in Gaza.