Gaza ground op

[Tzefa]

Sitrep for the day:

 

1. First IDF KIA, staff sgt. Dvir Emmanueloff, 22, Golani bde - killed by mortar round.

 

2. Few more WIA by sniper fire.

 

3. IDF is still positioning on the outskirts of Beit Hanun, Jabalya, Beit Lahya. It has also taken control of the Philadelphi corridor on the egyptian border.

The strip is cut in half at the point where Netzarim settlement used to be.

Most likely there will be no major action at least until the reserves arrive later in the week.

 

And the plasmastik update with some new pics: http://plasmastik.livejournal.com/426858.html

[Tzefa]

Anyone who supports democracy should wish the Hamas success

 

There's a point to that actually : )

However although Hamas won the local elections in Gaza in 2005 and parliamentary elections in 2006, it launched a mini-civil war against the Fatah in 2007, which is how they came to full control of the Gaza strip... and they have no plans for any kind of elections there in the future.

[Tzefa]

Another good reason to invoke the names of Arthur Harris and Curtis LeMay...sans August 6th and 9th 1945.

I think we've done almost everything we could realistically do from the air already - carpet bombing them into the stone age is unrealistic. First of all, they're already there, so its not much of a threat. Second of all, uncle Sam would be very mad and we don't want that. Third, with several thousands of palestinian casualties in a short timeframe, the situation Jordan and Egypt might spin out of control, and their governments might be forced to tear up the peace treaties with Israel, which would be unpleasant.

 

In any case, there's no substitute for boots on the ground.

 

I do think that another LeMay quote is completely appropriate here thou: "if you kill enough of them, they stop fighting".

[JOE BRENNAN]

Point is, I don't think it matters what the Israelis are or would be (be them democracy or totalitarian or whatever), their actions would still be the same against Hamas. And the response from the US would still be the same.

I think that's pretty obviously wrong. But to make it even clearer, consider the more realistic alternative, not that the Israelis become totalitarian but that the Palestinians become democratic* and democratically choose a path of non-violence. Note, not rolling over to any and all wishes of any part of the Israeli political spectrum, not necessarily accepting 100% Israeli control of Jerusalem, the legitimacy of the WB settlements, the Israeli border fence as the permanent border, etc. But a commitment to non-violent confrontation on those issues, a corrollary of which is acceptance of Israel's right to exist. That wouldn't magically end the struggle because those are real issues, on which not everybody in Israel is willing to compromise even in principal. But such an approach would be effective dealing with a basically moral society like Israel, and more so wrt the US, not because it's any more moral, but the basic incorrectness of your analysis: broad American support for Israel**, isn't based on specific belief that eg. Israel should solely control Jerusalem or have settlements in the WB, per se.

 

As was mentioned a lot of the broad support in the US for Israel is based on a negative image of the Palestinians, and their actions and motives, and hard to say that image conflicts heavily with reality. Changing that reality and thus image is what to focus on instead of a meaningless hypothetical about an Israeli dictatorship, or word games about a Palestinian 'democracy' that elects terrorists.

 

The Pal death cult strategy may work eventually, over decades or a 100+ years, who can say for sure it never will? But it has a very low chance of improving Palestinian lives in the next generation or two. The other approach has far more potential in any timeframe of current people's lifetimes, and that's what IMO genuinely puzzles a lot of Americans about the Palestinian, Arab and to some degree Muslim generally, mindset about this issue, the seeming failure to realize that, and instead focus on all kinds of tangents or impossiblities.

 

*in a true sense; a messy election or two followed by a coup is not a democracy, not to be compared anyway to a long running rule of law democracy, Pal territories v Israel, or anywhere else.

 

**and it is broad; there's a narrower pro-Israel lobby sure, and sometimes its influence tips the scale into US policies which may be too 'pro-Israel' for either the US or even Israel's longterm good IMO, but just tips it, couldn't do that if there wasn't a broad sense of basic identificiation by Americans with who the Israelis are (bona fide democractic society) and what they face, especially post 9/11 on the latter point.

 

Joe

[Kenneth P. Katz]

RIP Staff Sergeant Emmanueloff.

 

To this observer from afar, it seems that control of the Philadelphi corridor is critical since this and only this will allow the IDF to interdict supplies of weapons from Egypt.

 

Sitrep for the day:

 

1. First IDF KIA, staff sgt. Dvir Emmanueloff, 22, Golani bde - killed by mortar round.

 

2. Few more WIA by sniper fire.

 

3. IDF is still positioning on the outskirts of Beit Hanun, Jabalya, Beit Lahya. It has also taken control of the Philadelphi corridor on the egyptian border.

The strip is cut in half at the point where Netzarim settlement used to be.

Most likely there will be no major action at least until the reserves arrive later in the week.

 

And the plasmastik update with some new pics: http://plasmastik.livejournal.com/426858.html

[Kenneth P. Katz]

This is not a hypothetical situation. It was essentially the premise of the Oslo peace process, which was embraced at the time by a strong majority of the Israeli public although certainly not 100%. Nothing is embraced by 100% of any group, but that is not needed in the real world.

 

I think that's pretty obviously wrong. But to make it even clearer, consider the more realistic alternative, not that the Israelis become totalitarian but that the Palestinians become democratic* and democratically choose a path of non-violence. Note, not rolling over to any and all wishes of any part of the Israeli political spectrum, not necessarily accepting 100% Israeli control of Jerusalem, the legitimacy of the WB settlements, the Israeli border fence as the permanent border, etc. But a commitment to non-violent confrontation on those issues, a corrollary of which is acceptance of Israel's right to exist. That wouldn't magically end the struggle because those are real issues, on which not everybody in Israel is willing to compromise even in principal. But such an approach would be effective dealing with a basically moral society like Israel, and more so wrt the US, not because it's any more moral, but the basic incorrectness of your analysis: broad American support for Israel**, isn't based on specific belief that eg. Israel should solely control Jerusalem or have settlements in the WB, per se.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

It seems like the IDF is choosing an operational approach that is deliberate and cautious, rather than one that is based on using speed and shock.

[Guest JamesG123]

Is it possible that the Israeli strategy is to nibble off peices of the Gaza Strip area as punishment for Hamas' misbehavior as both barganing chips and as a reminder, or historical lesson of what happened when the Arabs went to war with Israel?

[Rod]

Sone idea of the kind of tunnels and traps that IDF soldiers are encountering:

 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

 

Golani soldier escapes hijacking attempt

 

Jan. 5, 2009

JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

A Golani soldier managed to single handedly foil an attempt to kidnap him during nocturnal operations in the Gaza Strip Sunday overnight, Israel Radio reported.

 

Soldiers from the IDF's Golani infantry brigade were fighting in the northern part of the Gaza Strip when they entered a house on which they had previous intelligence it was used as a Hamas command center.

 

Upon entering the house, the soldiers discovered entrances to several tunnels; the Hamas terrorists holed in the house used these to escape underground to neighboring houses and were shooting into the building where the unit entered.

 

One of the soldiers followed the gunmen into a tunnel and managed to contain several Hamas fighters in a firefight while underground inside the tunnel, before teaming up with his comrades again. Two IAF helicopters were scrambled to support the infantrymen, Israel Radio reported.

The military assesses that the Palestinian terrorists were trying to lure the soldier to go after them alone into the tunnel in an effort to kidnap him.

 

In related news, the IDF dimissed Hamas claims that the group had succeeded in kidnapping two soldiers. A statement by the IDF spokesperson said the army does not comment on "rumors and mendacious reports" issued by Hamas, and emphasized that if an incident of Hamas kidnapping a soldier would occur, it would break the news to the public in a proper and timely manner.

[Tzefa]

Is it possible that the Israeli strategy is to nibble off peices of the Gaza Strip area as punishment for Hamas' misbehavior as both barganing chips and as a reminder, or historical lesson of what happened when the Arabs went to war with Israel?

 

No I don't think so actually. Judging by the amount of forces committed so far - 4 full infantry brigades plus a lot of armor plus engineering, arty, and the reserves that presumably will be there in the next few days, there's gotta be more than that.

They're calling it "stage 2" ... there is a "stage 3" as well - IF it will be approved, of course. At the same time I'm sure there's no intention of hanging on to the conquered areas, nobody wants that.

 

Let me be cynical for a moment. The elections are just over a month away, and so far, this operation is working out very well for the current coalition. Labor, that was in real danger of becoming irrelevant (11-12 seats according to the polls before the op) is recovering, and Kadima is up keeping parity with the Likud at around 30 seats. Nobody can actually campaign as long as the fighting continues, it would be politically suicidal - everyone has to display support and national unity, since the people are very much in favor of the operation.

Although the goal is still not to topple Hamas - despite what Olmert might have said earlier, at the government meeting that approved the ground invasion he flat out refused to say that the objective is to end Hamas rule in Gaza - having committed to fighting Hamas they can't stop now not having achieved something concrete. Most likely, a ceasefire with international monitoring of the Rafah-Philadelphi corridor and border crossings.

 

And that will take a while longer and more pressure on the Hamas. As long as the IDF doesn't enter the centers of their cities, where they feel the strongest, they won't give in.

[capt_starlight]

The military assesses that the Palestinian terrorists were trying to lure the soldier to go after them alone into the tunnel in an effort to kidnap him.

 

Interesting. Seems more like a case of a "tunnel rat" (was the IDF soldier trained and equipped for it ?) got caught in an underground "fire fight" with some that had not quite got away or were determined to "take one with them".

 

Going down a tunnel like that is either extremely brave or extremely stupid (or a combination of both). The "Tunnel Rats" of Vietnam were always in the former category but talking to one of them a while back he admits it was not necessarily the best thing to do - and he was one of the later trained and equipped people.

[DKTanker]

Let me be cynical for a moment.

Question, do you agree with the operation? If so, why the cynicism? Nevermind, we have the same here...deep down agree with the operation but insist on finding ulterior motives.

Most likely, a ceasefire with international monitoring of the Rafah-Philadelphi corridor and border crossings.

I asked the question in passing earlier....why with Egypt having a common border with Gaza, but blockading it, do people insist that Israel alone is blockading Gaza? Even your own politicians refuse to point out the obvious. Why doesn't your government make the case that Gaza should be an Egyptian protectorate until such time cooler heads might prevail? Aslo, I've always wondered why Israel doesn't insist the UN live up to its own mandate of establishing and controling an international zone around and of Jerusalem.

[DKTanker]

Going down a tunnel like that is either extremely brave or extremely stupid (or a combination of both). The "Tunnel Rats" of Vietnam were always in the former category but talking to one of them a while back he admits it was not necessarily the best thing to do - and he was one of the later trained and equipped people.

With experience units started pumping CS into the VC tunnels and then send the 'rat' into the tunnel wearing a protective mask. Were the IDF to do that they would be internationally condemned for using chemical warfare.

[Gunguy]

They need to start killing Hamas at a rapid rate. Anything short of killing most of the people fighting the IDF will be seen as a victory for Hamas. If Hamas survives, they have another victory! So, I'm claiming a Hamas victory right now. The IDF will withdraw from the Gaza Strip in defeat (meaning peace agreement). This will show how strong Hamas is and how well they can deal with the IDF. Hmmm....reminds me of when they withdrew from Gaza the first time, it was a win for Palestinians.

[Tzefa]

Nevermind, we have the same here...deep down agree with the operation but insist on finding ulterior motives.

Exactly the same : )

Otherwise, whats the fun in armchair generaling ?

 

I asked the question in passing earlier....why with Egypt having a common border with Gaza, but blockading it, do people insist that Israel alone is blockading Gaza? Even your own politicians refuse to point out the obvious. Why doesn't your government make the case that Gaza should be an Egyptian protectorate until such time cooler heads might prevail?

See, Egypt is a nation of 75 million people, the vast majority of whom are poor, unhappy, and strongly support the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas is actually the palestinian branch of that same organization). The current regime is pretty much the only thing keeping the Brothers from taking power and turning Egypt into a huge version of Gaza, but with modern american weapons. Naturally, Egypt is virulently opposed to having anything to do with Gaza, they have enough problems, the last thing they need is one and a half million more poor, unhappy, islamic-fundamentalist supporting people.

We on the other hand want the status quo to remain intact as long as possible. So we tend to thread lightly and not make waves.

 

Aslo, I've always wondered why Israel doesn't insist the UN live up to its own mandate of establishing and controling an international zone around and of Jerusalem.

That's a whole another hot potato (more like a grenade really). Personally I would be extremely opposed to the UN having any kind of control in Jerusalem, and I'm sure majority of israelis feel the same way. The UN is incompetent, corrupt, and at best useless. It's like a rapid deployment cesspool - where they to get control of anything, it would only make things worse.

[Tzefa]

They need to start killing Hamas at a rapid rate. Anything short of killing most of the people fighting the IDF will be seen as a victory for Hamas. If Hamas survives, they have another victory! So, I'm claiming a Hamas victory right now. The IDF will withdraw from the Gaza Strip in defeat (meaning peace agreement). This will show how strong Hamas is and how well they can deal with the IDF. Hmmm....reminds me of when they withdrew from Gaza the first time, it was a win for Palestinians.

 

Hezballah has celebrated victory the last time as well. And to be honest, not without a good reason to. Yet now, when its high time to come out and help their palestinian 'brethren', they don't seem to be too eager to do so.

[DKTanker]

Naturally, Egypt is virulently opposed to having anything to do with Gaza, they have enough problems, the last thing they need is one and a half million more poor, unhappy, islamic-fundamentalist supporting people.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It doesn't change the idea of Israel using cynical politics, redundant I know, to shift some responsibility on Egypt. Currently Egypt reaps the international PR rewards at the expense of Israel.

 

We on the other hand want the status quo to remain intact as long as possible. So we tend to thread lightly and not make waves.

Well yes, with no victor and no vanquished, that's exactly what you get, perpetual war as the status quo.

 

That's a whole another hot potato (more like a grenade really). Personally I would be extremely opposed to the UN having any kind of control in Jerusalem, and I'm sure majority of israelis feel the same way. The UN is incompetent, corrupt, and at best useless. It's like a rapid deployment cesspool - where they to get control of anything, it would only make things worse.

I never thought otherwise. However, once again with cynical politics. As it stands the UN will no more live up to its own mandate than Egypt will help with Gaza. The point isn't to have the UN assume control, which it won't, the point is to shift the PR perception.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

DON'T STOP UNTIL HAMAS IS DESTROYED

 

By RALPH PETERS

 

January 5, 2009 --

 

ISRAELI ground troops have gone into Gaza. But can they rip out Hamas be fore international Israel-haters save the terror machine?

 

To provide its citizens even with temporary safety, Israel had no choice but to face a ground campaign's risks to its soldiers and the inevitable global criticism.

 

To provide security that might be measured in years, rather than weeks or months, Israel has to shatter Hamas, slaying enough rank-and-file terrorists to break their grip on Gaza's population. Above all, it's essential to kill the terrorist leaders. (Israel's worst blunder so far was not taking them out in the first wave of strikes, before they could go into hiding.)

 

The Israeli government denies that it seeks regime change in Gaza - what else can it say? But nothing short of removing Hamas will make an enduring difference. The terrorist organization only needs to survive to declare victory.

 

If it finds its back against the wall, Hamas may pretend to accept a truce to save itself, but it will never accept real peace with Israel. Hamas exists to kill Jews. Peace would erase its purpose - threatening all the power and perks its leaders and gunmen enjoy.

 

Here's the bitter truth: Israel can't stop its own bleeding without drowning Hamas in blood. That's Hamas' choice, not Israel's. No negotiations, no compromises, and no shuttle-diplomacy bargains will ever placate terrorists who believe their god wants tributes of Jewish blood.

 

Israel may never get another such chance as this to rip the heart out of Hamas. But Israel needs the fortitude to accept painful friendly casualties on the ground and to resist international pressure - which will be fierce.

 

Torn between the need to "beat the clock" and the competing requirement to operate methodically and minimize casualties, the Israel Defense Forces staff designed a multiphased ground operation in which success will build on success. The move into northern Gaza over the weekend followed at least three, and possibly four, concentric axes of advance, cutting off the local Hamas forces.

 

The initial mission for Phase One was to envelop Gaza City and its satellite towns, then encircle the Jabalya refugee camp - a key base for Hamas. The north was the obvious first target, since it's been the prime launching area for terror rockets.

 

The IDF wanted to avoid biting off too much at once, so its planners chose a classic carve-up-the-pie technique, chewing one slice of Gaza before taking on the next helping. This isn't so much a piecemeal approach as a methodical one, letting the IDF concentrate resources in one zone at a time. The inherent weakness? Such an approach - cleaning out the terrorists bit by bit - is slow and grinding.

 

There's going to be ugly fighting ahead, as the terrorists set layers of ambushes while using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Hamas will strive to bog down the IDF, which needs to maintain battlefield momentum - a challenge in any urban environment. (And let's be absolutely clear: Except for dead Jews, there's nothing Hamas leaders like better than dead Palestinian women and children, since the global media's appetite for dead kids verges on necrophilia.)

 

After cleaning out the first cluster of objectives, the IDF can push southward into central Gaza. Such a move to the south would be complemented by another flank attack into Gaza from Israeli territory, creating a series of hammer-and-anvil traps for Hamas gunmen.

 

Alternatively, the IDF could "bookend" Gaza by striking next at the strip's southern end, but Israel may have cut a deal to create an Egyptian zone of influence below Khan Younis. Time will tell.

 

Meanwhile, there's grueling, bloody fighting awaiting Israeli soldiers constrained by the laws of war and civilized standards, while facing opponents who revel in atrocities.

 

Fighting in dense slums and clearing high-rise buildings is just about the toughest work an infantryman can do. Effective combined-arms tactics - the infantry, tanks, engineers, artillery and special operators working together - reduce the risks somewhat, but, in the end, an infantry squad has to clear that basement or gauge the level of risk behind the apartment door. (Is there a booby trap, an ambush - or a family?)

 

Despite a superb performance by the IDF's pilots last week, we're learning, yet again, that 21st-century warfare remains the province of the soldier on the ground. What was true in the first Israelite kingdom remains true today: Warfare's a human endeavor. Technology changes combat's external features, but man remains war's essence.

 

Meanwhile, Israel must confront not only its flesh-and-blood enemy in all his ruthlessness, but a perverse global media, busybody diplomats seeking personal glory, a worrisome incoming US administration, and the West's historically illiterate intelligentsia conditioned to bleat that "war is never the answer!"

 

Over the past 5,000 years, war may not have been the perfect answer, but there have been countless times when it was the only answer. This is one of those times.

[Paul in Qatar]

Please define "destroyed." I can destroy a building, but I was never taught at Leavenworth how to destroy a political entity.

[Rocky Davis]

Please define "destroyed." I can destroy a building, but I was never taught at Leavenworth how to destroy a political entity.

 

Definitions 5 or 6 might suffice:

 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/destroyed

[TSJ]

Please define "destroyed." I can destroy a building, but I was never taught at Leavenworth how to destroy a political entity.

 

Uh, Private Hawlmueller would like to know if the grub at Leavenworth was as good for the Captain as it was for him? He has lots of fond memories there; three hots and a cot and even got his GED there!

 

L/Cpl Mord

[Kentucky-roughrider]

Definitions 5 or 6 might suffice:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/destroyed

 

 

Definition 4 also works

[Guest JamesG123]

They need to start killing Hamas at a rapid rate. Anything short of killing most of the people fighting the IDF will be seen as a victory for Hamas. If Hamas survives, they have another victory!

 

Won't matter. As we saw with Hezbolla in S Lebanon, the IDF could kill them down to a handful and on their "withdrawl" the Hamas leadership (who was the supply clerk beforehand) would proclaim victory.

 

Probably the only way to take this claim from them would be to hold onto a piece of territory or other tangible sign of loss beyond just a body count.

[Paul in Qatar]

From the cite:

5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.

6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

 

Fairly tough order for military force to destroy a political movement. Heck military force could not even destroy Fascism.

 

Leavenworth? Nice place once you give up any dreams you might have had for a white briefcase. I got a bit of skeet shooting in.

[Rocky Davis]

From the cite:

5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.

6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

 

Fairly tough order for military force to destroy a political movement. Heck military force could not even destroy Fascism.

 

Rendered useless or ineffective is the same as the situation regarding the VC after Tet 68, for they were so badly defeated that they were not considered an effective fighting force for the rest of the war. Even though it was not squashed completely out of existence, it was a mere gnat on the camel's ass after that.

 

I'm believing that is the definition of "destroyed" being used here.