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Abrams variants


Marek Tucan

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A quick question for our former Abrams crewmen, how was the coaxial MG fed? By one continuous belt going into that ammo bin to the left of the gun breech? How much 7.62x51mm ammo was in that bin, and how much inside of the tank total?

 

The FM says 8000 rounds ready and 4000 stowed elsewhere*. I think there is also 1000 rounds (total) of 50cal for the commander's weapon.

 

* As the Loader also has a weapon in 7.62x51, I guess that this 4000 rounds includes the loader's stowed ammunition supply.

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Maybe FV4034 CR2 are the one with better rear hull armor because it doesen't have thouse engine grill's and Merkava series with it's, even "thick" rear (but still very vulnerable) spaced armor.

Well i hope that my thinking is correct. :P

 

I recall posting a thread on tanks' rear armour and asked if the M1s with their engine grills were less well protected compared to the CR1 and 2 which have a solid bulkhead in the same place, and was told that in the M1, it's just as well armoured, only that the grills are "interleaved" (or something like that), i.e. one on top of the other, so that provides good protection.

 

First time I've seen "ED" in the M1 nomenclature (M1 'variant' names look even more confusing than T-72 upgrade designations :blink: :P ). First thing I thought it was for training, i.e. ED for EDucational. :lol: hehehe Perhaps "embedded diagnostics" is really just a cover for "extreme destruction" hehehe

Edited by TomasCTT
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Hi.

 

I recall posting a thread on tanks' rear armour and asked if the M1s with their engine grills were less well protected compared to the CR1 and 2 which have a solid bulkhead in the same place, and was told that in the M1, it's just as well armoured, only that the grills are "interleaved" (or something like that), i.e. one on top of the other, so that provides good protection.
This is interesting, so this means that rear grills in M1 and probably in other tanks with similiar design solution, have same or similiar thicknes like solid steel bulkhead in other tanks? Plus they are angled. :P

 

First time I've seen "ED" in the M1 nomenclature. First thing I thought it was for training, i.e. ED for EDucational. laugh.gif hehehe Perhaps "embedded diagnostics" is really just a cover for "extreme destruction" hehehe

 

Good point mate, heheheh. :P

 

(M1 'variant' names look even more confusing than T-72 upgrade designations blink.gif tongue.gif )
Yeah i notice that too. Besides i think our friends from US are more misterious about they high end tanks than any other nations, maybe besides Israel. :)

 

The FM says 8000 rounds ready and 4000 stowed elsewhere*. I think there is also 1000 rounds (total) of 50cal for the commander's weapon.

 

* As the Loader also has a weapon in 7.62x51, I guess that this 4000 rounds includes the loader's stowed ammunition supply.

 

For both M240's are 11400 7,62x51mm rounds, coax ammo bin is for belt with 2800 rounds, after that you put there another 2800 ammo belt (and another, and another ;) ). I think. ;)

Edited by Damian
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Hi.

 

This is interesting, so this means that rear grills in M1 and probably in other tanks with similiar design solution, have same or similiar thicknes like solid steel bulkhead in other tanks? Plus they are angled. :P

Good point mate, heheheh. :P

 

Yeah i notice that too. Besides i think our friends from US are more misterious about they high end tanks than any other nations, maybe besides Israel. :)

For both M240's are 11400 7,62x51mm rounds, coax ammo bin is for belt with 2800 rounds, after that you put there another 2800 ammo belt (and another, and another ;) ). I think. ;)

It has been a long time since I was in an M-1 Tank as a TC, but I remember M-240 machinegun ammo is 10,400 rounds (7.62x51mm) and 900 rounds of caliber 50. And when I was in them you had one M-16 and one case of hand grenades, which seemed odd to me, but maybe those grenades were for the smoke grenade launcher. And I thought the coax ammo box held 5,000 rds. All above is from many, many, years ago.

 

Mike

Edited by Delta tank 6
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Never been on an M-1. However the A1s and A2s coax ready box is about 4k. 11.4k is the total load by TM. 900 .50 cal. In practice I usually carried about 4k 7.62 (not all of it in the ready box) and 500 or so .50 cal in Iraq.

 

Every crew member has a rifle (M-4 or M-16) now days. Has been a while since only one or two rifles per tank. We all had 210 for our rifles. Also had 9mm's. Grenades were a unit thing. I carried a thermite and marking smoke in the tank and usually one frag on myself. Though probably wont carry it this time around.

 

The problem with the coax isnt running out of ammo, its the machine gun jamming from spent brass. You have to remember to empty the spent brass box if your in a fight. Had it jam on me twice in Talafar from that problem. I of course kicked my gunner in the back of the head the second time! :P

 

These are just from memory since Im a Stryker guy now. In case anyone is curious, I hate the MGS. Traded mine for an ICV. No way I was rolling around the desert in that cramped abortion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I find it surprising that one can't find a more exact loadout of the Abrams on the internet, oh well.

 

So would 9000 7.62x51mm ammo carried internally in the tank be an accurate guess? 2800 in coax ammo bin, another 5600 for the coax, and 600 for the loader, with all extra 7.62x51mm being carried externally?

 

I still think having a coaxial 25mm Bushmaster which waws considered at one point would have been a good idea.

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  • 5 months later...

Another question about the Abrams MG ammo setup.

 

I found this nice photo of the whole setup here and it raises some questions about how the ready box is laid out. What is with the circular tubes in there, how is the entire belt or belts of ammo laid out in there?

 

 

This was taken on a M1A1, but I imagine it is the same for the original M1 and M1A2.

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Lampshade111, could the holes simply be cutouts to be able to see the amount of ammo in the box? Presumably, the coax and main gun run across the top of the photo, right to left. Given the size of the box (and the length of the belt it would contain, does the coax have any assistance to lift the belt as it nears the bottom?

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Lampshade111, could the holes simply be cutouts to be able to see the amount of ammo in the box? Presumably, the coax and main gun run across the top of the photo, right to left. Given the size of the box (and the length of the belt it would contain, does the coax have any assistance to lift the belt as it nears the bottom?

The ready box nominally holds 4000 rounds. Easy to say, a bit harder to make happen. The ammunition is layered in the box in one continuous belt and no, there is no lift mechanism (though 20 years ago I was thinking there should have been). In any case, there is a stop roller to prevent the ammunition from rolling back into the box. The M1 is a bit different, the box would hold 4500 rounds and there were baffles inside seperating the rows of ammunition.

 

The cut outs, with a plexiglass window, are indeed an aid to determine the amount of ammunition remaining. Although practical experience suggested that was a waste of time as the plexiglass would become opaque and it was a simple manner of flipping open the top and have a look see.

 

The circular tube you mention, the one to the right of the ready box? That is the breechblock operating handle. The loader lifts that handle up and the block drops down.

 

Edit to add. The rack just to left of and below the coax ready box holds, IIRC, 24 boxes (4800 rounds).

Edited by DKTanker
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The ready box nominally holds 4000 rounds. Easy to say, a bit harder to make happen. The ammunition is layered in the box in one continuous belt and no, there is no lift mechanism (though 20 years ago I was thinking there should have been). In any case, there is a stop roller to prevent the ammunition from rolling back into the box. The M1 is a bit different, the box would hold 4500 rounds and there were baffles inside seperating the rows of ammunition.

 

The cut outs, with a plexiglass window, are indeed an aid to determine the amount of ammunition remaining. Although practical experience suggested that was a waste of time as the plexiglass would become opaque and it was a simple manner of flipping open the top and have a look see.

 

The circular tube you mention, the one to the right of the ready box? That is the breechblock operating handle. The loader lifts that handle up and the block drops down.

 

Edit to add. The rack just to left of and below the coax ready box holds, IIRC, 24 boxes (4800 rounds).

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know why the box redesigned and the baffles removed on the A1/A2 models of the Abrams, and where this stop roller is located? Based on your experience were jams or misfeeds common towards the bottom of the box?

 

The circular tubes I mentioned were actually those black cutouts behind the plexiglass.

 

BTW does anybody happen to have any photos showing the top open on the ready box?

Edited by Lampshade111
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Thanks for the info. Do you know why the box redesigned and the baffles removed on the A1/A2 models of the Abrams,
The baffels did make for a PITA when loading the box but perhaps they were thought not necessary with a smaller box. The box is smaller because there is less room with the bigger main gun.
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The M1A1 coax ammo box is a huge PITA to load up. It requires 20 boxes of ammo and they have to be layered in there precisely r the ammo will shift and bind and stop feeding. Also, you have a 4000 round ammo box, but a spent case box that only holds 200 casings and links. Yeah, you can dump that spent case box easily, but you must do it often when in serious contact. An M-240 with the gas port set on 3 is a buzz saw.

 

The 25mm would have been a shitty coax. Its too big and you would only have had 200 or so rounds. It also replicated the function of the cannon, vs an MG which is good for other stuff. The best coax would have been a .50 cal because it would have linked the long range and massive hitting power of the .50 to the superb M1 gunnery FCS. The ammo box would have been plenty big, but space on the gunners side would have been cramped.

 

The official loadout of small arms ammo on an M1 series tank is 11,400 7.62mm, and 1100 .50 cal, although actual designed stowage space is a bit less (the rest goes in the bustle rack or sponson box).

Edited by Scott Cunningham
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The M1A1 coax ammo box is a huge PITA to load up. It requires 20 boxes of ammo and they have to be layered in there precisely r the ammo will shift and bind and stop feeding. Also, you have a 4000 round ammo box

 

Out of curiosity, are those 20 boxes linked together to form an uninterrupted 4000-round supply, or something needs to be done by some crew member at every box-full of ammo (except for throwing out the used casings obviously)?

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Guest JamesG123

The 20 boxes two 100 rd. belts are tediously unpacked, linked together and then carefully fed into the box. As Scott said, its a huge pain in the ass.

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The 20 boxes two 100 rd. belts are tediously unpacked, linked together and then carefully fed into the box. As Scott said, its a huge pain in the ass.

 

Given that the empty bag has to be dumped fairly often anyway, does the long belt actually offer an advantage for sustained fire over reloading with shorter belts?

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Guest JamesG123

The spent brass box can be removed and dumped overboard mid-engagement or simply left off (except the spent brass and links make a mess & get everywhere).

 

Reloading can't. Also, having about half of the MG rounds linked up and ready to go saves alot of space that would be taken up by boxes and bracketry.

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The 20 boxes two 100 rd. belts are tediously unpacked, linked together and then carefully fed into the box. As Scott said, its a huge pain in the ass.

 

That's what I thought, just don't have a manual at hand to look it up. A PITA perhaps, but at least an out-of-engagement PITA. Sure beats IMO the Soviet school of thought where you need to replace an ammo box every 250 rounds in the middle of engagement in the confines of a small turret... as a small consolation the spent brass box holds 500 casings and links though.

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Just have to chime in on the coax storage. The ports were purely for viewing remaining ammo quantity. About loading the thing, I agree, there was no more disheartening sound than the schlunk of the ammo tipping over before it was fully loaded. It worked well, but sure was a PITA to load correctly. The one area that I think should have been improved was the spent brass box. The design could have been improved. The location and rear lip, front clip design were not overly stable. I spent several hours over the course of my tenure as a gunner cleaning up spent brass and links from the turret floor and the ever popular sub-floor. Nothing will test your flexibility and dexterity more than fishing spent brass and link from the sub floor.

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Guest JamesG123

Yeah I actually doodled up a chute that would direct the brass and links to the electronics cover plate under the gun so that they would slide down and collect on the turret floor with the aftcaps. But never tried to build or test it, much less get it approved by TACOM. There just isn't any room for a bigger catch box or a bag there.

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StrategyPage has an article on the M1A1SA:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/art...s/20100112.aspx

 

Situational Awareness

January 12, 2010: American armored vehicles took a real beating in Iraq, even if they were never hit by enemy fire. The heat, the sand, and the constant work wore these vehicles down. So the U.S. Army has came up with a $700,000 "reset" process that refurbished and upgraded M-1 tanks to M-1A1SA models. What the crews particularly liked about these SA (Situational Awareness) models was the many new sensors that gave the crew a better sense of what was going on outside, when all the tank hatches were shut (the vehicle was "buttoned up.")

 

The new goodies included the new Blue Force Tracker (BFT) gear, which reliably shows them where all friendly (BFT equipped) vehicles are at all times, on a map display. Then there is the new and improved thermal sights, that provide better images at longer ranges (exact range is secret, but said to be over two kilometers). The .50 caliber machine-gun topside gets a thermal sight. There is now a phone box mounted on the side, for the infantry to use to talk to the crew. The gunner has a GPS powered "Far Target Locate" function, which enables him to accurately locate and hit targets up to 8,000 meters away. The driver has better night vision gear, and a rear view thermal camera, making it a lot easier to back up at night, or in any weather. The commander now has periscopes and cameras which enable him to see what is going on anywhere outside the tank. This is particularly useful if the tank is taking lots of small arms fire in an urban setting, and you still have to look out for enemy troops trying to sneak up with bombs or RPGs, in the hope of getting a lucky shot.

 

There are a lot of upgrades and improvements in the electrical system, and other parts of the vehicle, many based on tank crew suggestions. Recently, Iraq was particularly insistent on getting the SA version of the M-1, and the 140 M-1s being built for Iraq will be M-1A1SA models. Iraqis saw the M-1 in action, and Iraqi army officers were able to hear, from M-1 crews, what the original M-1 needed to be more effective, especially in light of the Iraq experience (lots of urban combat).

 

The experience in Iraq has thus produced a version of the M-1 that is optimized for infantry support, which contains many elements in common with the M-1A1SA.

 

The "Far Target Locate" function is interesting. Does this mean that the -SA variant could function as artillery (given an appropriate shell)? Also, how do cameras compare to periscopes regarding vulnerability to enemy fire and damage?

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