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As I mentioned in the FFZ thread on this topic, I overheard an Indian being interviewed (Chopra? Chapra? Not sure) who essentially said that moderates become extremists because the WoT in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yep, it's Blame The US again. <_<

 

"Blame the US"? An interesting assumption. It is just the way things work; people know that their own side is being unreasonable will nevertheless back it when the war starts and they are forced to make a choice. Al-Qaida attacks us, we counterattack Al-Qaida, and young men who would never have taken up arms purely on the basis of propaganda and indoctrination find themselves with a simple choice of being combatants or victims, and not enough information to make a rational decision. I used to know a lot of Germans who had sworn the personal oath of loyalty to the Führer who decades later did not see that there was any real alternative at the time.

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John, perhaps they should blame Gandhi for pressuring the British into passing the India Act of 1935; of course Gandhi couldn't keep either side really happy, especially the overly violent Muslims who detested being ruled by India, which after WW2 forced the sitting viceroy, Lord Mountbatten to separate the NW and Far Eastern territories; enter derka-derka Pakistan.

 

Islam has been going after people not of their ilk, and of their ilk, and of everyone's ilk long before the U.S. ever arrived on the global scene, so to throw this at our feet is retarded: Even a stupid person would know history doesn't back them, so retarded is the correct word.

 

I truly hope that India will finally see the light and start stomping on these roaches...want our assistance, we are just a phone call away. ;)

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I couldn't believe it when I saw some of the responding Indian police armed with .303 Lee Enfield Mk 4!! Also, others were armed with FN FALs. The ones in the hotel in firefights with the terrorist were armed with the FAL. I hate to say it, but these weapons are antiques. Can't the Indians be totally equiped with a modern assualt rifle? I saw other weapons in use. But no MP5s or M4s.

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with the FN - a bit more hitting power than an M4. I am assuming that the attackers may be using stimulants to keep going - which would be a better stopper - a 303 or 7.62 or a 5.56

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Indian Anti-terrorist unit/SF shooting technique:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/11/2...28MUMBAI_5.html

 

 

Fcuk me, but I think I'd RATHER NOT be rescued by these guys ! Other report such things like: No cordoning off, flash-bangs, full auto room-clearing...

 

Pick one that is actually recommended out of 3... :o

Edited by Sardaukar
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The motivation for the attacks is easy to be found and I would be carful in blaming Pakistan. It could easiy be an Indian group that had enough of being second rate citizens.

 

 

 

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

A report from times of india

 

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/I...how/3507711.cms

 

Is there a Muslim mindset?

21 Sep 2008, 0007 hrs IST, Mohammed Wajihuddin, TNN

 

Maulana Mahmoodul Hasan Qasmi comes from a family of freedom fighters. As a hakim (Unani doctor) and head of Anjuman Minhajul Rasool, a

socio-religious organisation, he is highly respected in Mograpada, a Muslim ghetto in Andheri, Mumbai. In the small hours of September 1, roughly 50 plainclothes policemen, members of the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS), came looking for Subhan Qureishi alias Tauqeer, the alleged mastermind of the serial bomb blasts in Ahmedabad and Delhi. The cops woke the maulana and began to interrogate him.

 

When the cleric denied all knowledge of Qureishi or Tauqeer, they dragged him like a common criminal to his bakery, a few minutes walk from his house. Qasmi was not allowed even to wear a pair of slippers and don his customary skull-cap. It was only later that a police search of the maulana's house yielded a photograph album showing the cleric with several senior Congress leaders, including Sonia Gandhi. The police realised he was probably well-connected. They left in a hurry, issuing dire warnings of hell to pay if Qasmi spoke out about the raid.

 

Though ATS Chief Hemant Karkare later apologised to the residents of Mograpada, especially its much respected cleric, the damage had been done. Random searches. Arbitrary arrests. Fake encounters. Muslims in India today live in fear. Fear of a state they think is becoming increasingly communal, and a media they regard as biased (except the Urdu press, also called the Muslim press).

 

“It is tough to be a Muslim today. The main concern is security,” says Mumbai-based activist and Islamic scholar Asghar Ali Engineer, who is currently travelling around the country. “Everywhere I go, I see how upset the Muslim intelligentsia is with the way the community is being treated.”

 

It is not hard to figure out why. It was Faiz Ahmed Faiz who described Independence after the pain of Partition with the memorable line: “ Yeh daagh daagh ujala, yeh shabguzida sehar/Woh intezar tha jiska, yeh woh sehar to nahi (This black-smeared light, this night-ridden morning/This is not the morning we had waited for).” Tragically, the darkness seems only to have spread over the years.

 

Urdu-language columnist Hasan Kamal says, “Just after Independence, Muslims were afraid to keep Urdu books in their homes lest they were labelled Pakistani sympathisers. After the 1971 war, the community shook off the guilt it had been carrying from the days of Partition. Now Muslims are once again being made to feel guilty — this time they're seen as sympathetic to the bombers.”

 

What has made matters worse is that the community hasn't benefited from India's rapid economic progress. Just recently, the Rajinder Sachar Committee report reinforced a truth many of us knew: Muslims are worse off than most other Indians. According to the committee, the literacy rate among Muslims in 2001 was 59.1%. This is far below the national average of 65.1%. The percentage of Muslim graduates from poor households going on to study further is lower than SCs/STs: 16% and 28% respectively. Shockingly, the only place where Muslims are “over-represented” is the country's prisons. In Maharashtra, the percentage of Muslim prisoners in all categories (17.5%) was way above their share of population (10.6%). In Gujarat, the ratio of Muslim population to jail inmates was 9 to 25.

 

“If the trend continues, we will have to soon build idgahs in jails,” says Pasha Patel, the BJP's lone Muslim MLC in Maharashtra, with ironic emphasis. But there is little sign that anything will change for the better. Most Muslims know the Sachar report is unlikely to be implemented in full. “The backward castes get reservations. Muslims get commissions,” commented a senior journalist in a recent column.

 

 

The cause of Muslim anger is not deprivation alone. It is also the sense of justice discriminating against them. “The conviction rate in Mumbai's 1993 blasts was over 80%, while in the post-Babri demolition riots in the city it was not even 0.8%. Many police officers whom the Srikrishna Commission found guilty were promoted,” says Javed Anand, co-editor, Communalism Combat and general secretary, Muslims for Secular Democracy.

 

When the state discriminates against a section of its citizens, it prepares fertile ground for retaliation. The disaffected easily twist a sacred idea, say jihad in the case of the Indian Mujahideen, and tailor it to justify inhuman acts. This is why the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), which started life in the womb of the peaceable, almost dull, Jamaat-e-Islami Hind in the 1970s, succeeded in exploiting many aggrieved Muslims' sense of insecurity. Playing up Muslim fears of being treated as the 'Other', SIMI radicalised a section of educated Muslim youth.

 

“ Hum yeh maan chuke hain ki hum do number ke shahri hain (We have now accepted that we are second-class citizens),” rues an otherwise moderate cleric, Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi, secretary, All India Shia Muslim Personal Law Board. He says, “Intelligence agencies which are quick to discover the hand of Muslim terrorists after every blast don't show similar enthusiasm in investigating terrorist acts where Hindus are involved.”

 

It is obvious the agencies go soft when it comes to blast cases involving Hindu organisations. “In Nanded, in April 2006, two Bajrang Dal workers were killed while making crude bombs. A similar incident took place in Kanpur last month. Why haven't the authorities taken any action?” asks activist Ram Puniyani.

 

The sense of insecurity has further ghettoised the community. Ironically, these infrastructure-starved ghettos are labelled “mini-Pakistans”. Their residents don't get bank loans, a fact recognized by the Sachar report. Shabana Azmi may have sounded controversial and peevish when she recently revealed that she found it hard to buy a house in Mumbai with her husband Javed Akhtar because they were Muslims. But, ask any Muslim, and they will affirm it is true. Muslims do face discrimination when it comes to buying and renting houses in “Hindu” areas.

 

Some sociologists say Muslims are treated like pariahs in many places. Nobody knows this better than Vadodara-based scholar-activist J S Bandukwala. After he miraculously escaped a frenzied mob during the Gujarat riots of 2002, Bandukwala's university allotted him a government house in a block of four. “The moment I shifted there, all the occupants of the three houses in the block left. I felt as if I was an untouchable,” says Bandukwala, who has done a study on Juhapura, India's biggest Muslim ghetto with a population of over three lakh.

 

After the riots, Muslims from all over the city moved there. But despite the area boasting such a large number of potential customers, no bank wanted to open a branch in Juhapura. “After two Muslim MPs raised this question in Parliament following my appeal, Bank of India opened its branch there,” says Bandukwala.

 

Unfortunately, most Muslim ghettos across the country don't have crusaders like Bandukwala.

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From BBC (time GMT):

 

1355 The bodies of five hostages were recovered from the Jewish centre in Nariman House after it was stormed by Indian commandos, AFP news agency quotes an Israeli diplomat as saying.

 

Constantly updated here:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7753639.stm

Edited by Sardaukar
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There are some unconfirmed reports that Israeli SF has arrived to take over the situation in Jewish centre.

 

I doubt any of our guys were involved in that - Barak had offered, but India didn't accept. Which is a shame, honestly I think we could've sent enough forces to deal with all of the terrorists, in all locations.

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I doubt any of our guys were involved in that - Barak had offered, but India didn't accept. Which is a shame, honestly I think we could've sent enough forces to deal with all of the terrorists, in all locations.

 

I agree.

 

And I am bit angry about perceived incompetence of Indian SF/Anti-Terrorist units. But I may do grave injustice to Indian units in question...hopefully.

 

Besides, for some reason, I have always liked Barak as I liked Rabin. Being "left wing" does not necessary mean "weak" or "surrender monkey".. :D

Edited by Sardaukar
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All the 5 Israeli hostages were slaughtered by the terorrist pigs before they were dispatched to hell.

 

Seahawk,

 

So this is the Indian government's fault? The alleged leader of the Indian Muslim terror group is a wealthy software engineer. Virtually all the terrorists caught were middle class Muslims.

 

Sometimes it's better to shut up instead of saying nonsense.

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Indian Anti-terrorist unit/SF shooting technique:

...

Fcuk me, but I think I'd RATHER NOT be rescued by these guys ! Other report such things like: No cordoning off, flash-bangs, full auto room-clearing...

 

Pick one that is actually recommended out of 3... :o

The TV footage, reports from those in charge, & accounts of survivors have convinced me that I'd be better off rescued by the SAS, GSG, or just about anyone else.

 

In no particular order -

1. Confusion. How many times has each building been reported cleared?

2. "Spray & pray" clearly visible, as in your picture.

3. The plethora of different forces, & apparent failure of them to co-ordinate. In addition to the local police, the army, navy commandos, & at least three paramilitary forces were visible on TV at the same sites.

4. Failure to cordon off buildings.

5. Unsystematic clearing of buildings, & failure to block off cleared areas within them.

6. Why were blokes with Dragunov sniper rifles going in with the building clearing squads, while outside, covering windows, there were crowds of men with AK-47s & even shorter-range, more compact, weapons? Clearly seen on TV . . .

 

Then we have to factor in what happened at the start. Reports from the main station (Victoria when I was there - I forget the current name) suggest that the police arrived 30 minutes after the first shootings there, arriving long after the terrorists had moved on, & the ambulances arrived.

 

I'm an ignorant amateur, & I wouldn't dare even think of planning an operation to deal with such a crisis, because I have some idea of how little I know, but even I could see cock-ups in action, all over the place. India is full of talented people. When I spent a few months travelling around the country, I was frequently impressed by people I met. Where are they?

Edited by swerve
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I am not going to to judge the Indian HRT response. For sure, many blunders were made when seeing in hindsight. It is hard to know exactly what was happening, and let's not forget it was not just one location that was targeted, but many others and there could have been other sleeper cells waiting to attack.

 

I am sure an inquiry will find many faults of the Indian's response and actions, and hopefully they will improve what needs to be improved. But for now, my condolences to all the dead, including the Indian security personnel, other hostages and the Chabad casualties of which I am very close to.

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Muslims in India today live in fear. Fear of a state they think is becoming increasingly communal, and a media they regard as biased

 

It is tough to be a Muslim today.

 

What has made matters worse is that the community hasn't benefited from India's rapid economic progress. Muslims are worse off than most other Indians.

 

Their residents don't get bank loans, she found it hard to buy a house in Mumbai with her husband Javed Akhtar because they were Muslims. But, ask any Muslim, and they will affirm it is true. Muslims do face discrimination when it comes to buying and renting houses in “Hindu” areas.

 

Some sociologists say Muslims are treated like pariahs in many places. After the riots, Muslims from all over the city moved there. But despite the area boasting such a large number of potential customers, no bank wanted to open a branch in Juhapura.

 

I cut out some of the post. What is left is the part I really see as the "main points". I do not see a problem with this. If the Muslims in many countries (I know it is not all), get their act together, maybe they can join the global community as equals, until then they get no sympathy from me. When you have a religion such as Islam with so many negatives, you can't expect to be treated very well. Life is tough, muslims make it much tougher on themselves........

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All the 5 Israeli hostages were slaughtered by the terorrist pigs before they were dispatched to hell.

 

Seahawk,

 

So this is the Indian government's fault? The alleged leader of the Indian Muslim terror group is a wealthy software engineer. Virtually all the terrorists caught were middle class Muslims.

 

Sometimes it's better to shut up instead of saying nonsense.

 

Am I writing for the Times of India, I do not think so. Yet it is an interesting article that shines a light on the situation in India, written before the attacks.

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All the 5 Israeli hostages were slaughtered by the terorrist pigs before they were dispatched to hell.

 

Seahawk,

 

So this is the Indian government's fault? The alleged leader of the Indian Muslim terror group is a wealthy software engineer. Virtually all the terrorists caught were middle class Muslims.

 

Sometimes it's better to shut up instead of saying nonsense.

 

Hopefully they will be sewn into pig skins.

 

Attack is not Indian gov fault, far from that. This was in plans for long time, it seems..and main targets are not Indian but US, British and..Jewish. Now, who would hate passionately those...

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I thought the Indian Security Forces would have been sharper than they appear on TV. Constant conflict with Pakistan should have hardened India's anti terror forces to nearly Israeli levels but that clearly isn't the case. The picture of the yahoo with the gun up in the air one handed is a damning indictment of India's preparatons. Perhaps a shakeout is coming but they came off looking "out of it" this time (maybe shocked by the attacks?)

 

The level of planning on this op by the tangos is impressive from a distance. I don't know if they got lucky or not but it looks like they raised a lot of hell in a short period of time. I hope the Indians can get their act together and look more like Israeli or UK anti terror teams and less like the crew at Beslan.

 

If the tangos think this worked they'll be back to try again.

 

I bet President Elect Obama is unhappy about this development. His policy pronouncements so far indicate no special friendship for India. If anything he seems to view Pakistan and India as some sort of equivalent capacity even though Pakistan is clearly more of a terror instigator than India.

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In no particular order -

1. Confusion. How many times has each building been reported cleared?

2. "Spray & pray" clearly visible, as in your picture.

3. The plethora of different forces, & apparent failure of them to co-ordinate. In addition to the local police, the army, navy commandos, & at least three paramilitary forces were visible on TV at the same sites.

4. Failure to cordon off buildings.

5. Unsystematic clearing of buildings, & failure to block off cleared areas within them.

6. Why were blokes with Dragunov sniper rifles going in with the building clearing squads, while outside, covering windows, there were crowds of men with AK-47s & even shorter-range, more compact, weapons? Clearly seen on TV . . .

 

Then we have to factor in what happened at the start. Reports from the main station (Victoria when I was there - I forget the current name) suggest that the police arrived 30 minutes after the first shootings there, arriving long after the terrorists had moved on, & the ambulances arrived.

 

I'm an ignorant amateur, & I wouldn't dare even think of planning an operation to deal with such a crisis, because I have some idea of how little I know, but even I could see cock-ups in action, all over the place. India is full of talented people. When I spent a few months travelling around the country, I was frequently impressed by people I met. Where are they?

 

I am not Anti-Terrorist specialist either. Even though I think I am more SAS than Jim Shortt (reading the forum, Jimbo? :P)

 

Some comments on good points you said, swerve

 

1. There is always confusion. Problem is, there seem no-one particular in charge.

2. Poor training showing from Indian units responding.

3. Related to 1. Command structure seem to be borked.

4. No shit, which is related to 2.

5. Ditto, no shit, related to 2.

6. Unreal, and related to 1, and 2.

 

To Indians, bloody hell, this will not do. Thing you are conveying to enemy by the effort so far has been that you can be had. And this is not to insult the brave officers and soldiers who already had lost their lives, leading by example.

 

There is severe need of restructuring the apparent chaotic command structure. And first unit on scene cordons the area...for fcuks sake.

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The motivation for the attacks is easy to be found and I would be carful in blaming Pakistan. It could easiy be an Indian group that had enough of being second rate citizens.

Telegraph reporting that two of the terrorists are claimed to be Pakistani born British citizens.

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Indian police - first respondents - are usually armed with 303's - remember they are not supposed to use their weapons unless for the occasional riot control.

Mumbai police - ATS - anti terror squad - has Ak-47's, Sterling 9mm SMG and probably MP5 as well.

Indian Paramils - use FN-FAL manufactured as the SLR, Ishapore

 

The Army - uses the INSAS Battle rifle, Dragunov

The NSG - HRT/CRT unit - uses the MP5, PSG-1

The Marine Commandos - Navy MARCOS - use the MP5, AK-47, PSG-1, INSAS et al.

 

The latter three took the lead once they arrived. Unfortunately, thanks to a pusillanomous Indian Govt, indian anti terror laws and equipment for regular police forces remain pathetic. Only state which is an exception is Andhra Pradesh, which has an anti terror squad called the Greyhounds which is decently equipped and well trained.

 

Ok, so that was the Sterling SMG they were using, I thought it was a Sten. I did notice that some soldiers were in the hotel in the hallway doing clearing ops, and they were using the FN-FAL. That must be a honking long weapon to clear room to room. I thought the terrorist were armed with what appeared to be Skorpions. Can you comment on why some of the soldiers disembarking from their truck transport appeared not to have any mags in their rifles. Do, they dispense mags and ammo at the location itself. I thought they would have left their barracks fully armed.

I also noticed they used a Mil-8 for the ops against Nariman House. I thought that was an excruciatingly slow exit off the Mil, as the appeared to be only one rappel rope out of the back of the helo, and they exiting one at a time. Many western HRUs rappel 4 out at a time from a smaller helo. And were the commandoes wearing motorbike helmets? Thanks in advance for any comments.

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Did th ISF do a perfect job - NO

 

They were caught off guard with multilocational stikes - the officer who probably would have made a lot of difference was killed early on

 

btw - was it a useless flak jacket or was the ammo moe powerful than usual

 

they had a lot of different scenarios to deal with and to be ready for potential other one - given this and the size of some of the locations I think they did well

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