Roman Ruins in Germany

[Galloglass]

Greetings all,

 

Having been shipped back to beer-tastic Germany, i am looking to conduct a whirlwind tour of Roman sites on the continent. Been to Rome itself and walked the Via Appia and stood before the Senate House. Visited Saalburg, a small fort on the Limes Germanicus and had a wonderful afternoon there with the wife (who made all the proper oooohs and aaaahs to keep me placated, tho i swear i saw her rolling her eyes....) Nice for an afternoon trip but rather smallish for anything more.

 

Next on my hit list is the battle of the Teutoburg Forest. I have discovered that there is a park and museum near Osnabrück, at the (presumed) site of the fight. The Museum however seems...new age-ish and artifact sparse (from what i've seen on the web here, http://www.kalkriese-varusschlacht.de/en/v...on-center.html).

 

My reason for posting is this: Has anyone been there? If so, is it worth the run up? I'd hate to get there and be "What the h...thats IT?"

 

Any other sweet, well preserved or reconstructed sites off the beaten path ya'll know about?

 

Thanks for any input.

 

Galloglass

[DemolitionMan]

The best sites for Roman traces can be found at Xanten and Cologne. Xanten is especially famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten

[swerve]

Fair bit of stuff in the Römisch-Germanisches Museum at Cologne.

 

http://www.koeln.de/en/tourism/sightseeing-roman.html

[Hans Engstrom]

I'd recommend seeing the Hermannsdenkmal, although it says more about Germans than about history.

[philgollin]

For the rest of the continent Spain and Turkey (I prefer Turkey, but either will do) are good (and if you stretch to Syria, Tunisia and Libya there are some excellent large sites).

 

The UK is good for villa ruins but they are scattered far and wide.

 

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[Ssnake]

I wouldn't want to skip Trier, actually, even though the Porta Nigra, as nice as it may be, may not be the most dramatic ruins to find. Yet, Trier has a grandiose cathedral, there's the Roman bath remains, and in the vicinity is at least one (and probably a number more) dug out and partially reconstructed Roman farm buildings. Plus, there'll be plenty of opportunity to taste the results of about 1500 years of wine culture in the area. Finally, Trier also has the Karl Marx museum, lots of Chicoms passing through to watch.

[Xavier]

If going by Trier, a short stop at Bitburg might be...refreshing

And the Eiffel landscape itself isn't too bad either BTW

[Galloglass]

Thanks for the tips folks.

 

Fully aware of the impact and legacy Roman culture had/has in some of the larger cities and the associated tourist traps in them. I was looking more towards "off the beaten path, take my copy of Tacitus/Caesar's conquest of Gaul out and walk while doing some terrain association" kinda places. Tall order given the centuries involved i know, but rewarding none the less. For example, I'm sure one could track the fight at Alesia given memoirs and writtings as the hill is (probably!) still there. Was just wondering if there were places where the learned members of the forum had been able to do something like this.

 

In any case, the places named have been logged and scheduled for visitation (or will be, much to my wife's chagrin ) However, Turkey and SYRIA (?!?) are probably not going to make it to the itinerary. Didn't like being in that neck of the woods WITH a weapon...not sure how i'd feel about it without. Unfortunate i know, as i had seen something about Syria having a booming reenactment town, complete with mock gladiatorial games in an original ampitheather. Or perhaps that was Jordan. UK is doable. Be cool to trampse around a villa. Hadrians wall if i end up in the UK.

 

The Hermannsdenkmal is definately on the hit list for the Teutoburg Forest trip!

 

So much history, so little time.

 

Once again, thanks for the help!

 

Galloglass

[philgollin]

Western and central Turkey is safe and very tourist friendly - Syria is very safe and friendly (but not particularly touristy). Turkey is easy to get to from Germany due to the guest worker connections.

 

Likewise, Tunisia is very easy, whilst Libya is tedious but worthwhile if you really want to do ruins.

 

Why would you want a weapon in any of those places ?

 

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[SALADIN]

For the rest of the continent Spain and Turkey (I prefer Turkey, but either will do) are good (and

 

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Western and Central Turkey contain a great amount of Greek and Roman ruins.Visited Ephesus in 2005 , mighty impressive place, 2 to 3 kilometres of ruins from homes , to baths , libraries and even a brothel. And it is only partly excavated.Did not encounter any safety issues whilst there.

 

 

http://www.sailturkey.com/panoramas/ephesus/

[Tomas Hoting]

If you can make your way down do Bavaria, you can visit the Roman castello Biriciana (part of the Rhaetian Limes) and the great thermae in Weißenburg.

[swerve]

Thanks for the tips folks.

 

Fully aware of the impact and legacy Roman culture had/has in some of the larger cities and the associated tourist traps in them. I was looking more towards "off the beaten path, take my copy of Tacitus/Caesar's conquest of Gaul out and walk while doing some terrain association" kinda places. ..

 

Galloglass

Can't give you that, but I can give you a Roman town with an almost complete circuit of walls, usually deserted on weekdays, several miles from where I'm sitting now. There's nothing much else to see, apart from a tiny local museum in a shed (knock on someones door for the key) in a nearby village, an amphitheatre used for occasional performances, & a mediaeval church built with stone scavenged from the site (complete list of priests back over 700 years posted inside - rather high turnover 1348-50). The best stuff the Victorian excavators found was taken to the British Museum, & the museum here in Reading. You can't see what's in this picture on the ground. The street plan emerges in dry weather, when the grass is short.

 

Calleva Atrebatum - near the village of Silchester, Hampshire.

 

 

http://www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/la/silcheste...guide/index.php

[philgollin]

Trying to find the right road to get to Silchester church is a nightmare (unless you go the long way round via the main site entrance) but it is worth it - a charming little place.

 

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[cbo]

Next on my hit list is the battle of the Teutoburg Forest. I have discovered that there is a park and museum near Osnabrück, at the (presumed) site of the fight. The Museum however seems...new age-ish and artifact sparse (from what i've seen on the web here, http://www.kalkriese-varusschlacht.de/en/v...on-center.html).

 

My reason for posting is this: Has anyone been there? If so, is it worth the run up? I'd hate to get there and be "What the h...thats IT?"

 

I went to see the Kalkreise excavation site and the exhibition a few months after it had been established, so they might have found more since then. I found it to be a bit of a letdown. Not that many artefacts and not much to see on the site itself, though you can get some idea on how the Roman forces where channelled in by the landscape. Perhaps symptomatic is that the thing I remember best was an exhibition showing the problems of searching for metal artifacts in the area. Apparently, it was a much used air corridor by allied bombers during the war meaning that the ground was littered by spent cartridges, making metal detectors useless - or something like that.

 

If you are in the area, it is worth stopping for, if for nothing else, its historical significance. Even if it is not THE location of the battle, something clearly happened here and it is an important element in the ongoing discussion of where the battle actually took place.

 

I dont know where you are located, but you might be able to tie Xanten - which is well worth a trip - together with Kalkreise and the Hermannsdenkmal at Detmold. The landscape in the latter area is rather interesting as well, particularily the Externsteine. It is less than 300km between those and from Xanten it is only a short ride to the military museum in Overloon, Holland.

 

I was in Trier earlier this year and it is definately worth a visit. Lots to see, very close together (you can walk from one site to another), and you can send the wife shopping when she get bored.

 

Fully aware of the impact and legacy Roman culture had/has in some of the larger cities and the associated tourist traps in them. I was looking more towards "off the beaten path, take my copy of Tacitus/Caesar's conquest of Gaul out and walk while doing some terrain association" kinda places. Tall order given the centuries involved i know, but rewarding none the less. For example, I'm sure one could track the fight at Alesia given memoirs and writtings as the hill is (probably!) still there. Was just wondering if there were places where the learned members of the forum had been able to do something like this.

 

With regards to Alesia, I've been to two sites, both having plenty of credentials as THE site for the battle Pretty much the same story about Varrus' ill-fated campaign, I think.

But I can follow you thinking - I brought Thucydides: "The Peleplonnesian War" with me to Greece once and did as you suggest with regards to the battle of Pylos, where the Spartian forces surrendered on the island of Sfakteria. You can pretty much follow the description by Thucydides on the ground today - or at least you could back in the 1980ies (may all be covered with hotels now?!)

 

cbo

[Archie Pellagio]

Western and central Turkey is safe and very tourist friendly - Syria is very safe and friendly (but not particularly touristy). Turkey is easy to get to from Germany due to the guest worker connections.

 

Likewise, Tunisia is very easy, whilst Libya is tedious but worthwhile if you really want to do ruins.

 

Why would you want a weapon in any of those places ?

 

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I wouldn't say Syria isn't touristy, sure its not venice or paris, but its a reasonably popular stop on the back-packer train of Turkey-Syria-Jordan-Egypt, go to any decent site likte Palmyra or Crak d Chevaliers and you will be tripping over them...

 

I've always wanted to see Timgad in Algeria personally since I crossed off persepolis... I guess we all have our places.

[swerve]

However, Turkey and SYRIA (?!?) are probably not going to make it to the itinerary. Didn't like being in that neck of the woods WITH a weapon...not sure how i'd feel about it without.

 

Galloglass

Just noticed this.

 

Turkey had 23 million tourist visits last year, mostly W. European.

 

The hospitality, the friendliness, is amazing. Hard to be ripped off, too, a long as you don't get tempted to buy a carpet in one of the prime tourist traps. Drop money, or forget your change, & you'll be damned unlucky if nobody chases after you to give it back. Lovely place to visit, & outside the dodgy areas of the south-east (which I've visited with no problems) very safe. Learn a few words of the language (eespecially "please" & "thank you"), & don't keep aloof, & it's impossible not to have a good time.

Edited September 24, 2008 by swerve

[philgollin]

I wouldn't say Syria isn't touristy, sure its not venice or paris, but its a reasonably popular stop on the back-packer train of Turkey-Syria-Jordan-Egypt, go to any decent site likte Palmyra or Crak d Chevaliers and you will be tripping over them...

 

I've always wanted to see Timgad in Algeria personally since I crossed off persepolis... I guess we all have our places.

 

And how many decent hotels (2 to 3-star) are there at Palmyra (2 when I was there). The Syrians put a lot of obstacles in the way of individual travellers, but organised groups get a lot of good treatment.

 

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[vardulli]

Kalkriese - the museum has changed, since the site was first developed. There are not a great number of finds, but some are extremely good - and the early date and history of the site would make it worth a visit IMHO - but if you want lots of finds and ruins you will be probably be disappointed

 

Cologne has a superb collection - quite a few military stones

 

Bonn is as good with both stones and military objects ie some helmets

 

Munich has a good collection of military objects - in particular helmets and a large collection of daggers

 

Mainz has several museums although the best from a military point of view is closed until 2010 (as I found out a few weeks ago :-()

 

Frankfurt has a good collection a couple of nice helmets in particular

 

Wiesbaden also has a good collection - several helmets, but dont miss the military stones in the courtyard - very easy to do

 

Trier has several good sites to have a look at.

 

outside Germany

 

Carnuntum has one of the best collection of military objects Ive seen, there are many military stones on site too

 

there are number of smaller sites down the Danube, which are great

 

Holland - Leiden is worth a visit, a good collection some military finds

and Nijmegen is great, some really nice military finds

[thekirk]

Nobody has mentioned it, yet, but there is a very interesting restored section of the Limes near Friedburg, north of Frankfurt. I went to PLDC at Kransberg Castle, back in the day, and was pleasantly surprised to find that Friedburg Traning Area abutted the Limes. As we marched out there, you first passed a nondescript ditch, which gradually morphed into a fully-restored section of the fortified lines, complete with a fort. Somewhat more interesting was to be doing the land nav course, and discover that one or two of the points were actually inside of the remains of a Germanic hill fort, several km to the east of the Limes.

 

Since this was the height of the Cold War, it was interesting to realize that we were essentially doing the same thing the Romans were, 2000 years later, and slightly further east than they'd been doing it.

 

I can't remember the exact location, but doing a web search on the Limes and Friedburg ought to turn up something. I found a german-language guide to the area in a bookstore, somewhat later, that answered a lot of questions I'd come up with--the PLDC instructors were a little less than knowledgeable about the area.

[cbo]

I find that surprising. Tony Clunn, who discovered the battlefield, made it pretty clear in his book that his metal detector was the primary means of locating the site, and doesnt mention that problem once! He did mention recommending a particular type of detector to the German archaeologists though, though I gather that was more to be able penetrate further than 30cm, which most detectors are unable to do.

 

As I recall it, they had an exhibition showing hundreds if not thousands of cartridges found during the excavation. Could be that it was just something about archaology in the area in general, not that specific site.

 

I dont know how much Clunn was involved after he found the site in the 1980ies though?

 

cbo

[Archie Pellagio]

And how many decent hotels (2 to 3-star) are there at Palmyra (2 when I was there). The Syrians put a lot of obstacles in the way of individual travellers, but organised groups get a lot of good treatment.

 

.

 

There are definately more than that, the exact number I couldn't quote.

 

As for obstacles? Half the world gets visas on arrival in syria, and there's no issues for most countries so long as you're not israelli. I saw several Americans in Syria.

[cbo]

I dont doubt found lots of spend rounds, I find that entirely believeable. But the only way I think it might complicate things would be thorough Geophysical surveying (of which my knowledge is limited to multiple episodes of time team!)

 

Could be that - IIRC they use some form of electrical resistance measurement for that?

 

Its been 8-10 years since I saw the exhibition and I dont have any pictures or brochures, so it could also be my memory flagging with regards to the nature of the problem

 

cbo

[Galloglass]

All,

 

Hit the Mainz Roman-German Central Museum (rough english translation i think) on Thursday. Great collection of artifacts to be found! One floor was dedicated to Roman stuff, while the next hit upon the Middle Ages (not really my thing, but still had alot of wow! factor to it.) Will run up to the Varus site and Xanten on the next few days off, (I'm Darmstadt area, so not that big of a hike,) and start working my way towards the further sites after that.

 

Concerning the Eastern Empire ruins, i did not realize that Turkey was a big tourist trap. My impression (admitedly uninformed) was that it was not really safe for recreational travel. If this is not the case, i apologize for any harebrained statements on my part . I will bow to the wealth of knowledge that is Tanknet, with a mea maxima culpa.

 

If i could hit points further east, that opens a world of new possibilities...

 

Great stuff, thanks.

 

Galloglass

[Xavier]

All,

Concerning the Eastern Empire ruins, i did not realize that Turkey was a big tourist trap. My impression (admitedly uninformed) was that it was not really safe for recreational travel. If this is not the case, i apologize for any harebrained statements on my part . I will bow to the wealth of knowledge that is Tanknet, with a mea maxima culpa.

 

Galloglass

warm, sunny weather + safe + relatively cheap = entire armies of tourists a large part of which are there to roast in the sun and couldn't care less about Classical ruins

Quite a lot of sun-worshippers in Tunesia as well, and Marocco has it's fair share of tourists too.

[Archie Pellagio]

Concerning the Eastern Empire ruins, i did not realize that Turkey was a big tourist trap. My impression (admitedly uninformed) was that it was not really safe for recreational travel. If this is not the case, i apologize for any harebrained statements on my part . I will bow to the wealth of knowledge that is Tanknet, with a mea maxima culpa.

 

If i could hit points further east, that opens a world of new possibilities...

 

Great stuff, thanks.

 

Galloglass

 

Hehe, I remember in Bodrum (nee Halicarnassus) which was jam packed with self-roasting, overweight Germans and British lager-louts who would've thought 'mausoleum' was he local religion.

 

Basically as far as most of them are concerned they would barely know the difference between the Turkish agean, Greek agean or the Azores