M60A2 question

[Guest Scarlet]

Anyone know where the flashing amber lights used on exercises is is attached on the A2? I have one photo where it seems to be on the MG side of the commander's cupola but it is unclear as to where and how it is mounted.

Any help is appreciated, thanks.

[DKTanker]

Anyone know where the flashing amber lights used on exercises is is attached on the A2? I have one photo where it seems to be on the MG side of the commander's cupola but it is unclear as to where and how it is mounted.

Any help is appreciated, thanks.

Dwight doesn't play here anymore and he's the guy that would likely know. I can tell you this from my experience with the more common models of M60s, we mounted them as best we could...there was no fleet standard. There might not have been a standard within a company let alone the battalion. Back to the M60A2, it is quite possible the RAWL (Rotating Amber Warning Light) was mounted using one or more of the various bolts holes around the cupola or turret.

[Doug Kibbey]

...and we never used 'em during the Test Phase. Only on escort M151's.

[Guest JamesG123]

The A2s were out of service by the time the MILES system and its whoopie light were fielded weren't they?

[DKTanker]

The A2s were out of service by the time the MILES system and its whoopie light were fielded weren't they?

I think he means the rotating amber lights used during roadmarches by combat vehicles in western europe. They were around long long before MILES.

[zaevor2000]

I think he means the rotating amber lights used during roadmarches by combat vehicles in western europe. They were around long long before MILES.

 

I believe that's what he's referring to as well. What we used to do is improvise by putting the whoopee lights between 2 boards and bolting the 2 boards together. In this manner you could pretty much stick whoopee lights wherever you wanted. On our M113s we usually mounted them on the left rear as shown. You mount them different places on different types of vehicles, just as long as it is visible (of course you would remove the lights or just disconnect the wires in a tactical situation).

 

Of course they were also used with the MILES system and would go off when your vehicle was "killed" by MILES or by an EVIL controller with a God Gun... We always just called them "whoopee lights".

 

Frank

 

 

Edited July 8, 2008 by zaevor2000

[Guest Scarlet]

Thanks fellas, I've tried to upload the photo I have but have been unable to. Your comments have been helpful though.

Cheers!

[Kurt L]

I served in an M60A1 Battalion (3-32) but I recall that the 'A2 Bn in Friedberg (1-32) attached the bubble lights at the rear of the turret. I don't remember the exact location or method of mounting. In 1977-79 every single tracked vehicle in 3rd AD had to have a functioning bubble light in order to move on the German public roads. Somehow we still managed to kill a few German motorists every time we road marched.

[Doug Kibbey]

Thanks fellas, I've tried to upload the photo I have but have been unable to. Your comments have been helpful though.

Cheers!

 

Scarlet, Check your Private Messages. If you email me the pic, I'll post it for you. Me'n the A2 go WAY back.

[Doug Kibbey]

I recently purchased a volume from the same guys who produced the tankograd gazette, its all about Reforger. Its three volumes, but the first one covers from about 1969 to 1978, and very interesting it is too. Some photos of M60A2, and includes some of a bizarre vehicle called the Goer, which was apparently built by caterpillar.

 

"Goer's" were the M520 family of vehicles, some of those were under test at the Board when I was there and a good, departed friend of mine was on that project. Some are around in museums, one in Netherlands, IIRC. Several versions (tankers, ammo haulers, even a missile carrier I think). A few saw some Vietnam time. They did not excell anywhere, but an interesting concept. I believe there was more than one version and manufacturer, I'd love to see a scan or two of what you've got....

 

This is the one I'm personally familiar with at the Armor/Engineer Board at Ft. Knox. This is among the images you'll find on the Wikipedia entry for same (I just discovered). They not unreasonably claim "fair use" as the work of a U.S. Gov't employee, which is technically correct, as they were sent to me by former Board President Col. John Berres and taken by Photo and Graphics Branch of same.

 

I notice Neil Baumgardner has pics of a prototype version of a LeTourneu-Westinghouse version, probably from APG, which this ain't. I'd guess the LTW version might have electric drive at the wheels or something, as they did a lot of that sort of thing. I never saw that version first-hand, myself.

 

Edited July 9, 2008 by Doug Kibbey

[Guest JamesG123]

Its a giant Gama-Goat!!!

[Doug Kibbey]

Its a giant Gama-Goat!!!

 

Kinda', but Gama-Goats had six wheels and this'un only had fo-wer. And this was probably the better vehicle of the two, from what I hear, but WAY bigger and different application.

 

My best friend of 28 years, until he passed, had been a truck driver in VN, and he was on the Goer production vehicle project at the Board. While it had some interesting capabilities (like swimming, when everything was perfect, with little freeboard), he was generally not a fan and I'm inclined to respect the opinion of someone with firsthand experince with real production vehicles, especially when the one with trucks were in an environment less "ideal" than the one with the test vehicle.

[DKTanker]

Kinda', but Gama-Goats had six wheels and this'un only had fo-wer. And this was probably the better vehicle of the two, from what I hear, but WAY bigger and different application.

 

My best friend of 28 years, until he passed, had been a truck driver in VN, and he was on the Goer production vehicle project at the Board. While it had some interesting capabilities (like swimming, when everything was perfect, with little freeboard), he was generally not a fan and I'm inclined to respect the opinion of someone with firsthand experince with real production vehicles, especially when the one with trucks were in an environment less "ideal" than the one with the test vehicle.

Let's not forget that GOER's had absolutley no suspension system other than that needed to physically support the wheels. All spring came from the tires and since there was no suspension travel there were no shock absorbers. I've never driven one but I have ridden in them and a more uncomfortable and dangerous vehicle I can't imagine. Then there was moronic way cargo had to go in the side door and the wheel wells that intruded into the cargo bay thus limiting the physical size of the load. Just an overall crappy design. Our support platoon couldn't get their GOERs turned in fast enough when they received HEMMETs.

[Doug Kibbey]

Let's not forget that GOER's had absolutley no suspension system other than that needed to physically support the wheels. All spring came from the tires and since there was no suspension travel there were no shock absorbers. I've never driven one but I have ridden in them and a more uncomfortable and dangerous vehicle I can't imagine. Then there was moronic way cargo had to go in the side door and the wheel wells that intruded into the cargo bay thus limiting the physical size of the load. Just an overall crappy design. Our support platoon couldn't get their GOERs turned in fast enough when they received HEMMETs.

 

 

Lack of suspension was but one of his gripes.

[rmgill]

There's a few of those out on the collector's circuit. There's also a guy over on Steel Soldiers restoring an M656 semi tractor that was used for the Pershing I mobile launchers. He hasn't found a TEL trailer yet.

[Doug Kibbey]

There's a few of those out on the collector's circuit. There's also a guy over on Steel Soldiers restoring an M656 semi tractor that was used for the Pershing I mobile launchers. He hasn't found a TEL trailer yet.

 

M656 series is a whole different beast...had one crop up down the street here a couple of years ago for sale, used as promotional vehicle. They wanted $18K, which I considered too much given there were at least two other runners around for about half as much. Looked purty, though.

 

 

[Doug Kibbey]

If you are willing to wait to the weekend Ill scan it then. There isnt many shots, and at least one of them is on the back of a flatbed broken down.....

The text suggests it was mechanically unreliable, partly due to the mechanical linkage, have you heard anything of that?

 

Sir,

 

Please to be checking yer PM's...

 

Doug

[hojutsuka]

Britain also made a strange choice for offroad cargo truck in the Alvis Stalwart. It wasnt a bad vehicle (and seem very popular among collectors) but due to its transmission design being optimised for offroad work, I gather if you drove it on metalled roads long enough it could get 'wound up', and for that reason crews were encouraged to drive the vehicle half on the pavement for a while to unwind it.

Hi Stuart,

 

Could you explain what 'wound up' means in terms that a non-automotive guy like me can understand?

 

Also, as I understand it, the Stalwart was based on the Salamander fire truck, which in turn used automotive components from the Saladin and Saracen. So did all these vehicles suffer from this transmission 'wind up'?

 

Thanks in advance,

Hojutsuka

[jmcmtank]

Transmission wind up occurs in, for example 6X6 Stalwarts, when cornering on a hard surface. The "outside" wheels are going faster than the "inside" which produces a tendency for the inside ones to skid and strains/breaks the driveshafts. A differential would mitigate this but would hamper X-country performance as all power would go to the uselessly spinning wheel. Therefore you would "lock" the diff, or not have one, to give you in effect a solid axle. The skidding wheel is not such a problem X-country since friction is much lower than on concrete, for example. I have no idea whether the Stalwart had diffs or not; I heard some esoteric comment once about "Slipping Clutches"? As I say I was always of the tracked persuasion so don't know a great deal about the "Stolly", apart from the fact they could go anywhere but I hope my understanding of Transmission Windup is reasonably accurate.

[rmgill]

To add more to the windup issue. This is a characteristic of the vehicles patterned after the Daimler Dingo's driveline. This includes the Daimler Armoured Car, the Ferret, the Fox (and Vixen), the Stalwart, the Saracen, Saladin and Salamander.

 

The Power train has 1 Differential at more or less the center of the vehicle. The Engine provides power to the gear box which is built as a single case unit with the transfer box. The Transfer box has the differential that supplies power to a pair of shafts going to either side of the transfer box. Then you have a pair of shafts going forwards and backwards to the individual wheels. The 6x6 vehicles have the output shafts for the center wheels more or less coming directily out of the transfer box from the output shafts out of the diff.

 

So, on the 4x4s you have 2 wheels on the left that are locked together, and 2 on the right that are locked together. On the 6x6s it's 3 and 3.

 

The reason for this design is that with the individual drive shafts to EACH wheel station, you have space down in between the drive shafts for critical components (on the ferret the driver sits in between the driveshafts in the front and the engine sits in between on the rear). You also don't have to fit a differential into the space up front and in the rear under the engine. NOT having the additional differentials means the vehicle is a good foot shorter than it would otherwise be. Look at a Dingo vs a Lynx from Canada. The Dingo is shorter with otherise the EXACT same layout as the lynx has (absent the fuel tanks that they put outside the armor envelope out on either side).

 

Difference in distance traveled by the wheels on a side AND due to tire circumference differences can cause the windup to occur. The easiest way is to just hop a curb every so often or hit some good bumps. So far it's not been an issue for my ferret on the street. For a Logistics truck it was more of a problem I expect. Failure modes usually are problems in the wheel hubs and their planetary gears failing. The fellow what started Ferret Heaven and the JED site said that his unit in Norther Ireland tended to carry a couple of boards around with their Saracen. They'd hop out on long road marches, set the boards out and run the saracens over it to get them to unwind. (His description of active hull shockers and boarding a saracen were also interesting ).

[rmgill]

Transmission wind up occurs in, for example 6X6 Stalwarts, when cornering on a hard surface. The "outside" wheels are going faster than the "inside" which produces a tendency for the inside ones to skid and strains/breaks the driveshafts. A differential would mitigate this but would hamper X-country performance as all power would go to the uselessly spinning wheel. Therefore you would "lock" the diff, or not have one, to give you in effect a solid axle. The skidding wheel is not such a problem X-country since friction is much lower than on concrete, for example. I have no idea whether the Stalwart had diffs or not; I heard some esoteric comment once about "Slipping Clutches"? As I say I was always of the tracked persuasion so don't know a great deal about the "Stolly", apart from the fact they could go anywhere but I hope my understanding of Transmission Windup is reasonably accurate.

 

I don't think this is the case. I'm reasonably certain that windup is going to NOT occur between sides, but ONLY within sides itself.

[Lampshade111]

Doug Kibbey, what was your opinion of the gun/missile launcher system on the M60A2? How bad was the recoil when it fired?

[Richard Lindquist]

All of these vehicles (Gama Goat, M656, and GOER) were based on the 1960 MOVER study done by the CONARC Transportation School at Ft Eustis. The idea was that all of the wheeled vehicles forward of brigade rear would swim (except the jeep) and would have no trailers.

 

1-1/4 ton Gama Goat to replace 3/4 ton truck and 3/4 ton trailer.

 

5 ton M656 to replace the 2-1/2 ton truck and 1-1/2 ton trailer.

 

8 ton GOER to replace the 5 ton truck and 1-1/2 ton trailer.

 

Prototypes of both the 8 ton and 16 ton GOER are at Army Transportation Museum in Ft Eustis.

 

The GOER suspension and steering uses the same technology as used for large earthmovers. It works great in the mud, but is seriously flawed for road marches. The problems with the GOER "loping" out of control on the roads is shared by tractor-scraper combinations, scoop loaders, and rough terrain forklifts which use large low pressure tires for both flotation and suspension.

[Manic Moran]

Ran into a Vietnam-era Sheridan PL a few weeks back, he swore blind he didn't have any issues with the 152 gun/missile combo, and that the problems are overstated.

 

Not sure what to make of it.

 

NTM

[shep854]

Ran into a Vietnam-era Sheridan PL a few weeks back, he swore blind he didn't have any issues with the 152 gun/missile combo, and that the problems are overstated.

 

Not sure what to make of it.

 

NTM

 

It would be interesting if you could get him on TN. The discussion would make a nice companion to the recent M60 GPMG debate.