Polish casaulties in Market-Garden

[Marek Tucan]

Does someone have some details (how many, when, which unit etc.) about Polish casaulties during op Market-Garden?

 

Thanks

Marek

[CV9030FIN]

Does someone have some details (how many, when, which unit etc.) about Polish casaulties during op Market-Garden?

 

According to wiki:

KIA: 96

WIA: 276

MIA: 372

[Marek Tucan]

According to wiki:

KIA: 96

WIA: 276

MIA: 372

 

Yup, I know, seen it, what I'm looking for is more detailed breakdown, so far I ave sch breakdown only for the antitank battery that got dropped into Oosterbeek (132 men total, 30 KIA, 30 WIA, 29 MIA)

[BillB]

Does someone have some details (how many, when, which unit etc.) about Polish casaulties during op Market-Garden?

 

Thanks

Marek

Tuccy, the info you want is in Martin Middlebrook Arnhem 1944 The Airborne Battle (London: Viking, 1994), Appendix 2 "Order of Battle, Polish Independent Parachute Brigade Group", p. 461. It gives pre-battle strength, died, missing & wounded figures for every unit in the Brigade. I'd type it up but I'm literally just out the door on a trip and won't be back until Monday. If you've had no joy I'll do it then.

 

[EDITED TO ADD] BTW the figs there for the AT Battery are 132 went in/20 dead/29 missing/30 wounded

 

BillB

[Captain Hurricane]

From Middlebrook book mentioned by Bill B above:

 

Polish Independant Parachute Brigade Group (Maj Gen S. Sosabowski)

 

Went In/Killed/Missing/Wounded

 

Brigade HQ - 104 (plus 9 British Liaison Officers)/5/15/16

1st Bttn - 354/11/4/28

2nd Bttn - 351/11/7/33

3rd Bttn - 374/30/39/48

AT Btty - 132/20/29/30

Engineer Coy - 133/2/1/20

Signals Coy - 93/7 or 8/10/16

Medical Coy - 90/2/7/13

Transport & Supply Coy - 43/8/8/13

Light Arty Btty - 5 (plus 1 British Liaison Officer)/0/0/2

 

Totals are for men flown in. Wounded means safely evacuated to Allied rear.

 

 

Cheers

Edited June 13, 2008 by Captain Hurricane

[Marek Tucan]

Thanks alot!

 

EDIT: One more question, which parts (apart from the AT battery) were landed by gliders to Oosterbeek?

Edited June 13, 2008 by Tuccy

[Colin Williams]

From Middlebrook book mentioned by Bill B above:

 

Polish Independant Parachute Brigade Group (Maj Gen S. Sosabowski)

 

Went In/Killed/Missing/Wounded

 

Brigade HQ - 104 (plus 9 British Liaison Officers)/5/15/16

1st Bttn - 354/11/4/28

2nd Bttn - 351/11/7/33

3rd Bttn - 374/30/39/48

AT Btty - 132/20/29/30

Engineer Coy - 133/2/1/20

Signals Coy - 93/7 or 8/10/16

Medical Coy - 90/2/7/13

Transport & Supply Coy - 43/8/8/13

Light Arty Btty - 5 (plus 1 British Liaison Officer)/0/0/2

 

Totals are for men flown in. Wounded means safely evacuated to Allied rear.

Cheers

 

Was the Polish brigade as under strength as that or were some never dropped for one reason or another? 350 is an awfully small number for a battalion.

[Captain Hurricane]

Was the Polish brigade as under strength as that or were some never dropped for one reason or another? 350 is an awfully small number for a battalion.

 

Yes, Middlebrook (Pg 41) says "The brigade had its own training organisation but had not yet reached full strength. It was particularly short of experienced junior officers...."

 

Also the bulk of the Light Artillery Battery did not deploy with the brigade as there were no gliders available to lift the guns and their crews.

 

The brigade had originally been formed in Sept 1941 but did not seen action till Arnhem, three years later. They were some serious issues between the Brits and the Poles about the use of the brigade in Europe. Initially firmly under Polish command (through the exiled government in London) it was to have been dropped into Poland in support of an uprising of the Polish Home Army at a suitable time. However the British gradually changed the focus of the brigades operations as they realised that a airdrop round Warsaw from the West was not a starter and they wished to use the brigade as part of the campaign in France after D-Day.

 

Under much pressure the Poles agreed to use the Brigade in one operation in the West and then be allowed to deploy to Poland. The Brigade was under British command for the Arnhem operation. Ironically the timing of the Warsaw Uprising meant that the Brigade could not be deployed to Poland with all the Allies airbourne resources committed to Operation Market Garden.

 

By the time the Brigade dropped relations between Sosabowski and Browning were fairly bad which didn't help matters, the weather delays just adding to the Poles frustrations. Subsiquently after the return from Arnhem Sosabowski was relieved of command, a scapegoat for the failure of the operation. The Brigade was not sent to Poland and served as part of the Occupation force in Germany till it was disbanded in 1947 after returning to England. Many of the Poles remained in the UK after the war rather than returning to Poland.

 

 

 

Cheers

[BillB]

Thanks alot!

 

No bother mate, and thanks to Captain H for doing the honours.

 

EDIT: One more question, which parts (apart from the AT battery) were landed by gliders to Oosterbeek?

 

I don't recall seeing refs to any other than the AT Battery arriving by glider on 21 September, but I suspect that some of the 33 Jeeps delivered by the second lift may have belonged to the Poles' Transport and Supply Company. As you can see from CaptaIn H's post, Middlebrook refers to 43 men from that unit going in by air, and one of the eight dead was killed in a "motor accident".

 

As a matter of interest, what are you after the figs for?

BillB

[BillB]

Was the Polish brigade as under strength as that or were some never dropped for one reason or another? 350 is an awfully small number for a battalion.

 

IIRC the 1st Polish Independent was formed around a cadre originally assembled to undergo oficer training in Canada and other escapees from Dunkirk. Manpower was tight because there was no ready source of replacements, which is why the Polish gov in exile pushed so hard to secure the repatriation of Polish personnel captured by the Sovs in 1939. Sosabowski was always in competition with the other Polish units and husbanded his people very carefully - the latter's unwillingness to risk losing men to jump injuries is why the Poles eschewed aircraft jumps after basic parachute training, preferring to maintain skills with synthetic training and their custom-built parachuting tower at Leven in Fife.

 

That said, the Brigade was nowhere near as understrength as the bald figs cied above suggest. The third MARKET lift carrying the Poles on 21 September consisted of 114 USAAF C-47s, and was recalled after after take-off when the weather closed in. Only forty-one aircraft received the recall signal, and the remaining seventy-three continued and dropped their loads at the assigned DZ near Driel in the face of intense flak and German fighters. Five C-47s were shot down but their sticks got out. This delivered c.1500 men according to Middlebrook's figs. Considering that the British 1st & 4th Parachutes Brigade went in c.2000 strong in c.126 C-47s, the Poles do not appear to have been that much understrength. Note also that para battalions were also a bit smaller than their non-airborne counterparts - the battalions from the 1st & 4th Brigades went in an average of 548 strong, and 156 Parachute Battalion went in only 479 strong.

 

BillB

[Marek Tucan]

As a matter of interest, what are you after the figs for?

 

Based on a dispute on one Czech discussion board (serious), there appeared an idea that only those who went to Oosterbeek suffered significant casaulties, so was trying to cast some light into it - according to my expectations, while the AT battery suffered terrific losses, the rest of Polish troops also didn't get a "free ride".

[baboon6]

Bill, those 500 men less means as someone pointed out that each infantry battalion started off with only around 350 men. That means each one probably only had two rifle companies, a significant reduction in their fighting ability. Either that or each coy was way understrength.

[BillB]

Bill, those 500 men less means as someone pointed out that each infantry battalion started off with only around 350 men. That means each one probably only had two rifle companies, a significant reduction in their fighting ability. Either that or each coy was way understrength.

I think we are talking at cross purposes. The Polish battalions did not start off with only c.350, that is how many reached the DZ at Driel. The 41 C-47s that received the abort signal carried c.820 men back to their start airfields, assuming each C-47 was carrying c.20 men; add that figure to the c.1500 dropped at Driel by the remaining 73 C-47s and the Polish Brigade was the same strength as the 1st and 4th Parachute Brigades if not slightly larger. That is why Middlebrook's "went in" figures are significantly smaller than you'd expect, not because they Poles were understrength.

 

BillB

[baboon6]

I think we are talking at cross purposes. The Polish battalions did not start off with only c.350, that is how many reached the DZ at Driel. The 41 C-47s that received the abort signal carried c.820 men back to their start airfields, assuming each C-47 was carrying c.20 men; add that figure to the c.1500 dropped at Driel by the remaining 73 C-47s and the Polish Brigade was the same strength as the 1st and 4th Parachute Brigades if not slightly larger. That is why Middlebrook's "went in" figures are significantly smaller than you'd expect, not because they Poles were understrength.

 

BillB

 

Okay thanks mate, I didn't know that.

[Von Richter]

A good book to have a skeg at may well be 'Poles Apart'... all about the Independent Parachute Brigade.