Post-surrender mop-up - WWII

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 20, 2024 by Junior FO

[seahawk]

Uh, that's not what I've read. There was a famine in Germany after the war (indeed, all of Europe). Whilst Allied indeed had a plan for post-war Germany, that plan was Morgenthau plan.

 

True but through US help it was better hten it would have been without. In that time most people were still much closer to the farms, so they knew the harvest was bad and that it could have been worse. And as my grandpartens said, the Americans made you feel they really cared. The British to a lesser extent, while it quite bad in the french sector.

[Brian Kennedy]

At least in Switzerland food rationing lasted till 1948. IIRC France was the same. I doubt Germany was better off.

 

Didn't rationing exist in Britain until the early 50s?

[Brasidas]

Google is your friend.

 

Condoleeza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld were the first to float the comparison to the Werwolf in separate speeches to a VFW Convention in San Antonio on 8/25/03.

 

According to this article, Maurice Rose, despite eyewitness accounts, was "allegedly a victim" of the Werwolf.

http://www.talkingproud.us/International090103.html

 

Thomas Sowell, 12/15/05:

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell121305.asp

 

The American Thinker, 6/28/07

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/0...errorism_1.html

 

This was not about "Googling". This was about "widely read articles" around the time of OIF. Still waitin.

[Mote]

This was not about "Googling". This was about "widely read articles" around the time of OIF. Still waitin.

 

I can't link to any specific articles, but I recall seeing that a lot from the conservative side of things.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

This was not about "Googling". This was about "widely read articles" around the time of OIF. Still waitin.

 

Goal post, moved, 1 ea. The only place I can find the quote " "widely read articles" around the time of OIF" is in your last post.

 

Your original post was:

 

Never read one of those articles where Werewolves and Iraqi guerillas were compared, and I've read quite widely on OIF. Where did you dig to find them?

 

 

I provided a few of the articles with dates. Whether you're intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that is up to you. Or were you just trolling?

Edited May 31, 2008 by Hittite Under The Bridge

[Tzefa]

My grandparents, both teachers, were dispatched to western Ukraine to teach in rural schools in the late 40's / early 50's. The "forest brothers" were still quite active in those areas, acting not unlike the iraqi Al Qaida today, thou probably on a far lesser scale - killing mostly government officials, particularly teachers, doctors, and others sent by the central authority. This went on for nearly a decade after the war's end.

The soviet government actually did a sort of a 'hearts and minds' thing - no villages were razed, and no collective punishments. They did the opposite in fact, the locals' living conditions were continuously improved, and meanwhile the "brothers" were infiltrated and eliminated.

Eventually it worked. Well, up until 1991, at least

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

At least in Switzerland food rationing lasted till 1948. IIRC France was the same. I doubt Germany was better off.

 

In the American sector the average daily ration was initially 1,250 calories a day, which was raised to 1,550 by Decemeber, 1945. By March, 1946, the ration fell to 1,275 calories a day in the American Zone, 1,050 calories in the British Zone, and 980 in the French Zone.

[Ken Estes]

This was not about "Googling". This was about "widely read articles" around the time of OIF. Still waitin.

Were you asleep at the time? You probably also missed Dubya's claim in his Feb03 war speech that Iraq had 'threatened' the USA.

[Sardaukar]

My grandparents, both teachers, were dispatched to western Ukraine to teach in rural schools in the late 40's / early 50's. The "forest brothers" were still quite active in those areas, acting not unlike the iraqi Al Qaida today, thou probably on a far lesser scale - killing mostly government officials, particularly teachers, doctors, and others sent by the central authority. This went on for nearly a decade after the war's end.

The soviet government actually did a sort of a 'hearts and minds' thing - no villages were razed, and no collective punishments. They did the opposite in fact, the locals' living conditions were continuously improved, and meanwhile the "brothers" were infiltrated and eliminated.

Eventually it worked. Well, up until 1991, at least

 

For some reason, Ukranians were not too happy to belong to happy Soviet family. Ditto with Baltic states... Wonder why.

 

Maybe 20's and 30's famine had something to do with it with Ukraine. But maybe it was just a happy family smiling under the supervision of "Uncle Joe" Stalin...

[Yama]

My grandparents, both teachers, were dispatched to western Ukraine to teach in rural schools in the late 40's / early 50's. The "forest brothers" were still quite active in those areas, acting not unlike the iraqi Al Qaida today, thou probably on a far lesser scale - killing mostly government officials, particularly teachers, doctors, and others sent by the central authority. This went on for nearly a decade after the war's end.

The soviet government actually did a sort of a 'hearts and minds' thing - no villages were razed, and no collective punishments. They did the opposite in fact, the locals' living conditions were continuously improved, and meanwhile the "brothers" were infiltrated and eliminated.

 

I've read that after Stalin's death, Soviet government offered a general amnesty for the insurgents, which brought out remaining hold-outs, except for few die-hards. I guess that eventually similar solution will be used in Iraq.

[Brasidas]

Goal post, moved, 1 ea. The only place I can find the quote " "widely read articles" around the time of OIF" is in your last post.

 

Your original post was:

I provided a few of the articles with dates. Whether you're intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that is up to you. Or were you just trolling?

 

Original post in thread contained the following.

 

"I've been following a discussion on another board, where it was asserted that the current combat operations tempo in Iraq is comparable to that of post-surrender Germany and Japan, as well as post-cease fire Korea. This poster also blames the media for promoting the view that the Iraq situation is abnormal and hasn't happened to the US before."

 

Perhaps I am being unkind, but if the "media" in that post is the same "media" that the majority of Americans would typically watch, it is otherwise known as "mass media", since the majority of Americans who vote and get their opinions swayed by other people's opinions rather than through using critical thinking skills and screening information tend to be consumers of mass media.

 

If such is the case, they would unlikely think that....

 

"http://www.talkingproud.us/" - I've never even heard of this one before.

 

is an organ of mass media, or that

 

"http://jewishworldreview.com/" - Pretty obviously a niche website.

 

is also an organ of the mass media, or that

 

"http://www.americanthinker.com/" - IMO a largely specialized pseudo-intellectual neo-conservative with how many unique visitors per month?

 

is also an organ of the mass media.

 

Now, if you would like to argue that the topic of "Post Surrender mop-up - WWII" with comparisons to the post WWII occupation of Germany and/or Japan is a primary theme in the present debate, I am sure you can come up with much less marginal and somewhat close to mainstream media organs supporting such an assertion, or at least an opinion or editorial column in some mainstream paper somewhere, right?

 

Of course, if you wish to continue to engage in intellectual sophistry and claim the original constraints which I shall paraphrase here, "debaters on another discussion board blame media for influencing public opinion into believing the Iraq occupation experience is abnormal through comparisons to post WWII occupation experience" aren't applicable to my assertion, I'll have to assume your trolling as well. I think I inferred as much in my initial post to this thread when I asked "Where did you dig to find them?", which is what that initial post is about. If it was a theme in any part of the US political spectra, it was a very marginal one to begin with, and not aimed toward wider audiences.

Edited May 31, 2008 by Brasidas

[Brasidas]

Were you asleep at the time? You probably also missed Dubya's claim in his Feb03 war speech that Iraq had 'threatened' the USA.

 

Were you asleep all the time Ken?

 

They threatened the US a lot, enough so that my little brother at the time a TC was shipped while on a RO-RO off of the coast of Kuwait for Desert Fox until Saddam pulled his troops back.

[swerve]

For some reason, Ukranians were not too happy to belong to happy Soviet family. Ditto with Baltic states... Wonder why.

 

Maybe 20's and 30's famine had something to do with it with Ukraine. But maybe it was just a happy family smiling under the supervision of "Uncle Joe" Stalin...

 

The artificial famine of ca 1930 didn't affect much of Western Ukraine, since a lot of it was part of Poland at the time. It drastically changed the population balance of Eastern Ukraine, depopulating rural areas, while Russian peasants moved into the growing industrial cities. The areas worst affected by the famine are now the most pro-Russian, as a result of that population shift.

 

There are some people posting here regularly who consider Stalins methods a model for solving current political problems, & often say so - though they tend not to credit Stalin.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Original post in thread contained the following.

 

"I've been following a discussion on another board, where it was asserted that the current combat operations tempo in Iraq is comparable to that of post-surrender Germany and Japan, as well as post-cease fire Korea. This poster also blames the media for promoting the view that the Iraq situation is abnormal and hasn't happened to the US before."

 

Perhaps I am being unkind, but if the "media" in that post is the same "media" that the majority of Americans would typically watch, it is otherwise known as "mass media", since the majority of Americans who vote and get their opinions swayed by other people's opinions rather than through using critical thinking skills and screening information tend to be consumers of mass media.

 

If such is the case, they would unlikely think that....

 

"http://www.talkingproud.us/" - I've never even heard of this one before.

 

is an organ of mass media, or that

 

"http://jewishworldreview.com/" - Pretty obviously a niche website.

 

is also an organ of the mass media, or that

 

"http://www.americanthinker.com/" - IMO a largely specialized pseudo-intellectual neo-conservative with how many unique visitors per month?

 

is also an organ of the mass media.

 

Now, if you would like to argue that the topic of "Post Surrender mop-up - WWII" with comparisons to the post WWII occupation of Germany and/or Japan is a primary theme in the present debate, I am sure you can come up with much less marginal and somewhat close to mainstream media organs supporting such an assertion, or at least an opinion or editorial column in some mainstream paper somewhere, right?

 

Of course, if you wish to continue to engage in intellectual sophistry and claim the original constraints which I shall paraphrase here, "debaters on another discussion board blame media for influencing public opinion into believing the Iraq occupation experience is abnormal through comparisons to post WWII occupation experience" aren't applicable to my assertion, I'll have to assume your trolling as well. I think I inferred as much in my initial post to this thread when I asked "Where did you dig to find them?", which is what that initial post is about. If it was a theme in any part of the US political spectra, it was a very marginal one to begin with, and not aimed toward wider audiences.

 

I'll use your own words:

 

Never read one of those articles where Werewolves and Iraqi guerillas were compared, and I've read quite widely on OIF. Where did you dig to find them?

 

Pretty straighforward, despite your later attempts to obfuscate afterwards. You were given names, dates, and links to answer your original post. Obviously you're perhaps not as well-read as you first stated.

 

Funny that you should omit the speeches by the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State in your long-winded reply. I had mentioned your choice to be intellectually honest earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, you've shown you have no intention of being so. Sad, really.

[Brasidas]

I'll use your own words:

Pretty straighforward, despite your later attempts to obfuscate afterwards. You were given names, dates, and links to answer your original post. Obviously you're perhaps not as well-read as you first stated.

 

Funny that you should omit the speeches by the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State in your long-winded reply. I had mentioned your choice to be intellectually honest earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, you've shown you have no intention of being so. Sad, really.

 

Right, because the end of 2005 and 2007 are highly influential in 2003-2004 when OIF and the occupation of Iraq was at the critical point.....pot meet kettle.

Edited May 31, 2008 by Brasidas

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Right, because the end of 2005 and 2007 are highly influential in 2003-2004 when OIF and the occupation of Iraq was at the critical point.....pot meet kettle.

 

So your latest little dodge is that the articles must be "influential" and of a certain timeframe.......

 

*Ahem*

Condoleeza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld were the first to float the comparison to the Werwolf in separate speeches to a VFW Convention in San Antonio on 8/25/03.

 

Why, look what I found! Google most certainly is your friend.

 

Fox News, July 25 2003. I hope that's "mainstream" enough:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93345,00.html

 

New York Times, August 26, 2003:

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...Rice&st=nyt

Edited June 1, 2008 by Hittite Under The Bridge

[redcoat]

In 1945 the Allies had millions of troops in Germany, and they also retained the German police force to help keep order

 

In 2003 the Allies only had tens of thousands of troops in Iraq, and they disbanded the Iragi police force, and because they had so few troops it led to an immediate collapse of law and order.

[Ken Estes]

Thanks Hittite, I have often wanted a ref on that incredibly dumb Condi speech, one of many others of course, but seldom so self-serving. I doubt that the WH has a copy on its website, for instance....

[Brasidas]

So your latest little dodge is that the articles must be "influential" and of a certain timeframe.......

 

Are you implying articles written in December of 2005 and in 2007 with minor exposure at best, had influence on events in 2003 and 2004 when the US invaded and occupied Iraq?

 

*Ahem*

Condoleeza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld were the first to float the comparison to the Werwolf in separate speeches to a VFW Convention in San Antonio on 8/25/03.

 

Wow, this is actually Germaine to the argument. One applicable line by Condi in a speech that most likely wasn't televised (could be wrong on that too though).

 

Why, look what I found! Google most certainly is your friend.

 

Fox News, July 25 2003. I hope that's "mainstream" enough:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93345,00.html

 

I remember this reductio ad absurdum piece. Perhaps I interpreted it differently than you at the time, but what I took away from it, was how the media was defeatist and that wars in the past would have been disasters if post-modernist views had been the mainstream in previous wars and the occupations that followed them. However, even with the sarcasm, it's obvious that this regularly transcribed blog intended to present to the country at large, via a niche blogger's opinion column prominently displayed five links down from the Fox News front page, that Werewolves were just as bad as Terrorists.

 

Half credit for this one.

 

New York Times, August 26, 2003:

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...Rice&st=nyt

 

Really, if anything I don't see these attempts to liken Werewolves to Terrorists as anything more than trial balloons that didn't get traction. If you think otherwise, well more power to ya.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Are you implying articles written in December of 2005 and in 2007 with minor exposure at best, had influence on events in 2003 and 2004 when the US invaded and occupied Iraq?

I'm implying nothing of the sort. Again, you keep dodging the central theme. You said you hadn't read any articles that compared the post-war situation in Germany to the situation in Iraq. I provided links. You want to argue about them. They speak for themselves. I didn't write them.

 

Wow, this is actually Germaine to the argument.

Who is this Germaine, and why is she germane to this discussion?

One applicable line by Condi in a speech that most likely wasn't televised (could be wrong on that too though).

You are. It was aired in part on CNN on both 25 August 03, and again on 27 August 03.

 

I remember this reductio ad absurdum piece. Perhaps I interpreted it differently than you at the time, but what I took away from it, was how the media was defeatist and that wars in the past would have been disasters if post-modernist views had been the mainstream in previous wars and the occupations that followed them. However, even with the sarcasm, it's obvious that this regularly transcribed blog intended to present to the country at large, via a niche blogger's opinion column prominently displayed five links down from the Fox News front page, that Werewolves were just as bad as Terrorists.

I'm glad you remember it. I didn't have anything to do with setting up FOX"s website, just pointed out where and when it appeared. It's my opinion (just that, no proof) that this piece was the origin of Secretary Rice's and Secretary Rumsfeld's statements on the Werwolf/Iraqi dead-enders similarity....or lack thereof.

Really, if anything I don't see these attempts to liken Werewolves to Terrorists as anything more than trial balloons that didn't get traction. If you think otherwise, well more power to ya.

 

You're reading more into my participation in this thread than there is. I responded to beans4 request for information on the effect of the Werwolf organization in post-war Germany by quoting the official U.S. Army history of the occupation period, and a piece prepared by the RAND Corporation for the U.S. government. Then, you asked for links to articles that made such comparisons. I gave them. I have not, until the last few lines, offered any sort of opinion other than why the Werwolf movement did not take hold. It's obvious, to me at least, the comparison is not a valid one. You might want to alert the media to the fact that I agree with you that the whole episode was a trial balloon that didn't gain traction, mainly because it was not based in reality. The 2007 date of one of the articles seems to be proof that the balloon is still floating around out there.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Thanks Hittite, I have often wanted a ref on that incredibly dumb Condi speech, one of many others of course, but seldom so self-serving. I doubt that the WH has a copy on its website, for instance....

 

You're welcome, Mr. Estes.

[R011]

I doubt that the WH has a copy on its website, for instance....

 

Of course you do, and , as usual when your BDS kicks in, you're wrong.

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20030825-1.html

[Ken Estes]

Of course you do, and , as usual when your BDS kicks in, you're wrong.

Thanks for the link, although I don't know what BDS is. I think there must be

better indicators though. I did not know the WH had left some of these howlers up.

Must be for a certain 'reading' audience?

[NickM]

Thanks for the link, although I don't know what BDS is. I think there must be

better indicators though. I did not know the WH had left some of these howlers up.

Must be for a certain 'reading' audience?

 

Ken....

 

 

BDS is shorthand for 'Bush Derangement Syndrome'....Are you being serious or are you just being 'coy'?

 

 

nickm