Drafted in the SS?

[Arminius]

While you could get drafted, it was easy to dodge it by "volunteering" for a regular Wehrmacht unit (at least that's what some people of that age said when the Grass case came up). I can see that some people didn't grasp the full picture and let themselves get drafted into the SS, blinded by Nazi propaganda and thinking that they were the elite, best of the best, bla bla. But I don't think that anyone ever was dragged in chains into the SS, kicking and screaming.

 

They were not "kicking and screaming", because if they did, they were dead! ( hanged )

 

The father of a friend of me WAS drafted in the SS!

 

NO chance, except you were a glider pilot, and such attached already to the Luftwaffe ( my father - in - law )!

 

So there was "pressure" and you had no chance ... it was 44 or 45, anything able to move normally in Germany was already earmarked to SS, but the "Ostmark" had still "fresh", able guys ... which WERE pressed into SS services - with Number, not removable, a scar there either a quick sentence of death by russian soldiers or death in a russian labour camp ...

 

Hermann

[bd1]

So the guy in Nottingham may not have been fibbing after all then.

 

BillB

´May´ is the key word. Many were conscripted against their will, thousands sat through the WW2 in forests, but thousands were quite willing to fight with anyone who could have kept the Soviets away- be it Germans, Finns, Martians or Satanists. A familiy friend is not shy about it - he went willingly, went to Btl. ´Narwa´ to avenge his relatives and friends who were deported to Siberia in 1941. And he´s not shy about his Iron Cross he got doing it. He said he would much preferred somebody else than Nazi Germany but there was nobody else. Simple, he said.

Edited May 30, 2008 by bd1

[BillB]

´May´ is the key word. Many were conscripted against their will, thousands sat through the WW2 in forests, but thousands were quite willing to fight with anyone who could have kept the Soviets away- be it Germans, Finns, Martians or Satanists. A familiy friend is not shy about it - he went willingly, went to Btl. ´Narwa´ to avenge his relatives and friends who were deported to Siberia in 1941. And he´s not shy about his Iron Cross he got doing it. He said he would much preferred somebody else than Nazi Germany but there was nobody else. Simple, he said.

fair comment and thanks for the expansion. I think the reality of the situation faced by folk in your neck of the woods at that time is often overlooked here in the West among all the moral posturing. Pretty much the epitome of being between a rock and a hard place.

 

By the way, what exctly is "Btl. 'Narwa'?

 

BillB

[Tzefa]

A familiy friend is not shy about it - he went willingly, went to Btl. ´Narwa´ to avenge his relatives and friends who were deported to Siberia in 1941. And he´s not shy about his Iron Cross he got doing it. He said he would much preferred somebody else than Nazi Germany but there was nobody else. Simple, he said.

Great logic, that.

Just like the Nazis themselves were simply trying to avenge the shame of defeat and treaty of Versailles

 

By the way, what exctly is "Btl. 'Narwa'?

 

An estonian all-volunteer unit that was part of the Wiking SS division until '44 when it was transfered to the all-estonian 20th Waffen SS.

 

Some links:

http://germanmilitariacollectibles.com/blo...bles-again.html

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20763

 

Interesting quote from one of those:

 

The Estonian Division was used only sparingly for the rest of the war. It finally surrendered to the Russians in Bohemia on May 7, 1945. All survivors were packed up and shipped to Siberian Labor Camps, from which they were never heard from again.

Very unfortunately not quite so.

[Ssnake]

They were not "kicking and screaming", because if they did, they were dead! ( hanged )

The father of a friend of me WAS drafted in the SS!

NO chance, except you were a glider pilot, ... So there was "pressure" and you had no chance ... it was 44 or 45, anything able to move normally in Germany was already earmarked to SS, but the "Ostmark" had still "fresh", able guys ... which WERE pressed into SS services - with Number, not removable, a scar there either a quick sentence of death by russian soldiers or death in a russian labour camp ...

OK, I wasn't precise enough. There should be made a differentiation between Germans and the population in occupied territories. The latter had no choice, the former usually had (with exceptions, especially in the last months).

[Sardaukar]

Great logic, that.

Just like the Nazis themselves were simply trying to avenge the shame of defeat and treaty of Versailles

An estonian all-volunteer unit that was part of the Wiking SS division until '44 when it was transfered to the all-estonian 20th Waffen SS.

 

Some links:

http://germanmilitariacollectibles.com/blo...bles-again.html

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20763

 

Interesting quote from one of those:

Very unfortunately not quite so.

 

You might be interested that Estonians who wanted to fight against Soviets were not given much options...

 

Check the web page of my friend (and distant relative):

 

Four Helmets of Steel

[bd1]

Sardaukar - kiitos for the link . Intresting read and i hope your friend will continue this project.

 

Tzefa - Thanks for the links. ´Enemy of my enemy is my friend´- as one poster wrote on second link, sums it all up to me quite well. It was his decision and he came close to paying for it with his life several times , escaping from captivity of Sov.troops (and one time a firing squad) in Pärnu 1944 3 times in 2 days. He was saved by a estonian lieutentant driving by who commanded the soldiers to hand him over to him , took him to his car and bit later told him to take off. Went to Siberia anyway later.

[Ken Estes]

As in so many aspects of the III Reich, its conscription defies easy analysis - also disproving old notions of Nazi 'efficiency.' The W-SS was hardly prepared for the WWII expansion, given Himmler's dream of a racial, ideological and physical elite. Initially, the expansion of the W-SS immediately prior and in the initial year of WWII was accomplished by an internal 'draft' of members of the General SS, the Death's Head units [only the beginning of the problem of asserting they were 'soldiers like any other'], and the Police and Police Reserve - in other words from within Himmler's personal empire. As that empire grew, the W-SS would continue to take advantage of it, and of course after the July44 Conspiracy Himmler is given command of the Replacement Army, solving most problems, but too late. As far as I get it, the Wehrmacht conscription policy for the first few years did not even grant the SS a share, being apportioned among the Army, Air Force, and Navy. Any additional recruiting of manpower for the Waffen-SS would have to come from the shares of the other three services, which competed hotly for priority. The Waffen-SS command gloomily forecast that the Wehrmacht would only allow them to recruit approximately two percent (or 12,000 men) of the yearly draft. Since the maintenance of the units in hand required 18,000 men a year, new sources of manpower had to be found. This was hte case after the expansion of the W-SS to 4 field divisions. Basically, the W-SS lived from hand to mouth, receiving a share of conscripts only as Hitler would approve the formation of new SS divisions.

 

This search for manpower pools not controlled by the Wehrmacht rules led to recruiting from occupied and neutral countries and the foreign national legion program, which failed, plus the intrusion into labor pools, and best of all, the drafting of ethnic Germans [Volksdeutschen] from not only conquered territories, but also 'allies' such as Romania, Hungary, etc. At the same time,[edit] protests over the blatant violation of the rules by SS recruiters were opposed by Himmler and his bureaucrats, but even Himmler had to answer to the flood of protests from the Gauleiters. By the end of 1942, only 80,000 eligible men remained in the General SS, including those with exemptions, whereas the W-SS manpower was 466,000 [bernd Wegner, 308n].

 

It is also true that the German army grew weary of the foreign volunteer contingents and in Jan45 all such units were disbanded in the army and transferred to the W-SS. Before that, new notions of racial policy had allowed French and French-speaking Belgians [Walloons] to form SS volunteer assault brigades in 1943. By then, the last waves of volunteers had been exhausted and only refugees fleeing the allies [E and W] would swell the ranks.

 

One particularly useful warning:

“My research suggests that authors dealing with themes of collaboration and resistance must be especially careful in examining evidence regarding the size of those two phenomenon.” Sweets, Choice in Vichy France: The French under German Occupation (New York, 1986), viii.

 

 

 

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/

Edited June 1, 2008 by Ken Estes

[Tzefa]

You might be interested that Estonians who wanted to fight against Soviets were not given much options...

 

Check the web page of my friend (and distant relative):

 

Four Helmets of Steel

 

Sorry Sardaukar, but I got no sympathy for anyone who volunteered into the SS, for whatever reason. They knew what they went for, and most of them got what they deserved, in Russia, Europe, or Siberia later. The ones who survived all that... well. I suppose they're some lucky bastards.

[Sardaukar]

Sorry Sardaukar, but I got no sympathy for anyone who volunteered into the SS, for whatever reason. They knew what they went for, and most of them got what they deserved, in Russia, Europe, or Siberia later. The ones who survived all that... well. I suppose they're some lucky bastards.

 

If you had checked the page and references, for example only minority of Estonians ending in SS volunteered for it.

 

August 28th 1942 Himmler authorized recruitment for an Estonian SS unit. Estonian response was lukewarm at best and only a small amount of true volunteers joined in. Additional manpower was ordered from e.g.police battalions and civil police. Since police formations were, like the SS, under Himmler's ultimate command, it was easier to transfer men to the fledgling Legion.

 

 

At the beginning of 1944 Himmler ordered that the brigade was to be expanded to a division by adding a third regiment of infantry and supporting units. The divisional commander was Standartenführer Augsberger, an Austrian by birth who had commanded the Brigade from July 1943.

 

Initially the third regiment only had two battalions. The expansion included a reconnaissance battalion, artillery was expanded to a regiment size unit, engineer battalion was added and the signals unit was expanded to a battalion. The manpower was obtained by enrolling conscripted Estonians. Specialist units like signals and antitank battalions were manned largely by Germans.

 

There is quite a big difference between that and volunteering to join SS. As when it comes to organization itself, I don't think anyone has doubt about evilness of it.

[Tzefa]

If you had checked the page and references, for example only minority of Estonians ending in SS volunteered for it.

 

...

 

There is quite a big difference between that and volunteering to join SS. As when it comes to organization itself, I don't think anyone has doubt about evilness of it.

 

I know, thats why I said "anyone who volunteered". I know of people from the same Estonia who did get drafted against their will, and just deserted after a few months as soon as the opportunity came. Big difference there.

[Sardaukar]

I know, thats why I said "anyone who volunteered". I know of people from the same Estonia who did get drafted against their will, and just deserted after a few months as soon as the opportunity came. Big difference there.

 

Ah, I misunderstood.

 

For example in Finland in 1941 very few actually understood the nature of SS. As when it comes to Finnish Volunteer SS Battaillon:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Volun...f_the_Waffen-SS

 

In December 1940 SS headquarters was in touch with the Finnish government as part of military negotiations with Finland. They had strongly suggested to the Finns that they should concretely show their allegiance to Germany by sending volunteers to the German armed forces. There was historical precedent for the move; a battalion of Finnish volunteers had signed up with the German army during the First World War, when Finland was still a part of Russia. They had formed the 27. Jaeger Battalion of the German Army and fought on the Eastern Front.

 

There were strong attempts from Finnish government to try to make the unit part of Wehrmacht one, but since SS had strong say with foreign volunteers, it was not to be so. In the end relations with Germany were deemed to be more crucial than organization they did belong to.

 

The Finnish government agreed to the plan, both to demonstrate their allegiance to Germany and to gain a concrete assurance of their alliance. The definitive Finnish academic study on the battalion is called "panttipataljoona", or "pawn battalion", where pawn refers to an item that is pawned with no connotations to the chess piece. The Finnish foreign ministry ordered the former chief of the secret police, Esko Riekki, to carry out recruiting for the battalion in secret.

 

At Riekki's insistence, the men were recruited from a wider range of volunteers instead of only right-wing extremists and Nazi sympathisers. The recruits were screened for racial suitability; requirements included a minimum height of 170 cm, good teeth, age 17-23 years and satisfactorily answering a questionnaire with such items as whether the recruit was of "Aryan birth" or not.

 

Despite the Finnish government's attempts to recruit from a wide range of political opinions, some 20% of the men had extreme right-wing affiliations. Approximately 80% were or had been members of Finnish Suojeluskunta militia.

 

At least them were never accused of war crimes or atrocities. They still did serve in Waffen SS, though.

 

In May 1943 the battalion was transferred away from the front, as the two years was at an end, and was disbanded in July 1943. Those members of the battalion who wanted to stay in Waffen-SS joined SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier Division Nordland or SS-Standarte Kurt Eggers.

 

Those men who stayed after original 2 year contract can definitely be seen in bit different light...

Edited June 3, 2008 by Sardaukar

[turska]

SS took pretty big chunk from the conscript pool at (specially) 44 and 45 and those men were never asked if they would like to be in the wermacht or in the Waffen-SS.

 

One reason for seeing combat badges and stuff on camp guards is that some of the wounded Waffen-SS soldiers were sent to do some guard duty while recovering.

[Ken Estes]

I don't see how a 'big chunk' of the German [Reichsdeutsch] conscripts of the last year of the war would have gone to the W-SS. After mid-44, units no longer operated at full strength. For example, 12th SS HJ Div bleeds dry at Normandy is only in action as a battle group in the Ardennes offensive at the end of the year. The new units forming after 1943 bear little resemblance to the 9th-12th divisions, many being brigades upgraded on paper to divisional status, including foreign units swelled by refugees or mobilized party militias from the native collaborationist parties.

 

One of the reasons why the 12th SS Div is destroyed is that few cadres could be found to train and lead the windfall of 20,000 HJ volunteers from Axmann's orgnization, leading to the commitment of the division to combat without seasoned leadership and adequate training. After the 1943 reorganization, the W-SS has no flush times.

[BillB]

SS took pretty big chunk from the conscript pool at (specially) 44 and 45 and those men were never asked if they would like to be in the wermacht or in the Waffen-SS.

 

One reason for seeing combat badges and stuff on camp guards is that some of the wounded Waffen-SS soldiers were sent to do some guard duty while recovering.

Yes, and another reason is that cross postings back and forth between different branches of the SS were not uncommon. And *all* the SS were considered soldiers in the struggle against the enemies of the Reich & Volk, irrespective of branch.

 

BillB

[cbo]

I read it a few years back, and its Omer, not Omar. I was told that the personal correspondence he draws upon to illustrate his thesis was selected from a collection specially assembled by Goebbel's Propaganda Minsistry to illustrate National Socialist fervour among the troops, which undermines things a bit I think. Personally I'd put it in the same box as Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, insofar as it goes a tad too far trying to push a personal agenda. That said, Bartov's underlying thesis of complicity has been pretty well proven, if not quite as all pervading as he suggests. See here for example (there's some criticism of Bartov's work in there too): http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~cm322900/reviewessay.html

 

AFAIK, the Wehrmachts involvement in exterminations, random killing of civilians, mistreatment of prisoners and warcrimes in general has been quite well documented from many different sources in the past many years. I recall things like army research facilities using KZ-camp inmates for experiments, civilians shot and villages razed when fighting partisans, Soviet POWs randomly shot, marched to death and generally mistreated etc.

 

You just cannot serve a master like Adolf and get off with clean hands.

 

cbo

[DesertFox]

An added question, could you be drafted into the S.S. as an officer?

[Sardaukar]

An added question, could you be drafted into the S.S. as an officer?

 

I doubt that before 1945. Later in war quite a few units were transferred under Waffen SS and one could presume their officers became contemporary SS officers. Especially Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine units were moved to Wehrmacht and Waffen SS in 1945.

 

People might find this interesting:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc...20-195-06.shtml

 

Q. And now tell the Tribunal as exactly as possible, and pay special attention to the question, were they volunteers or were they drafted into the Waffen SS?

 

A. The Waffen SS originated from the SS Verfugungstruppe (Emergency Troops). The Leibstandarte was made up of several hundred men. This had been set up in 1933 as a guard and representative group for the Reich Chancellery.

 

[Page 282]

 

Owing to the expansion of these representative tasks and guard duties, the Verfugungstruppe in the years 1934 to 1939 was made up of volunteers from all the levels of the German population. At the beginning of the war the Verfugungstruppe had about 18,000 men. Service in the Verfugungstruppe was military service. In addition to that, there was in existence on the 1st September, 1939, the Death's Head Unit which hid about 8,000 men. To these two units were added about another 36,000 men between the autumn of 1939 and the spring of 1940. These men had been drafted as an additional force for the police as a result of emergency service measures. These 36,000 men together with the Verfugungstruppe and the Death's Head Units made up the Waffen SS.

A directive of the High Command of the Wehrmacht in the spring of 1940, which appeared later in December, 1940, as an army service regulation, dealt with the military supervision, composition and recruiting of the Waffen SS. By the beginning of 1940 we had 100,000 men in the Waffen SS. There were 36,000 who had been drafted and 64,000 volunteers.

 

THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now.

 

(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)

 

ROBERT BRILL - Resumed

 

DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued

 

BY DR. PELCKMANN (for the SS):

 

Witness, you had just said that at the beginning of 1940 the Waffen SS had 100,000 men, 64,000 volunteers and 36,000 draftees. Will you continue about the development?

 

A. In the same year, 1940, we had 50,000 more recruits for the Waffen SS; 2,000 to 3,000 were drafted and the others were volunteers. In 1941 we received 70,000 men, 3,000 drafted, the rest volunteers. In 1942, 30,000 men were drafted.

 

THE PRESIDENT: Would it not be quicker and just as accurate to take all these figures as they have been given before the Commission? Presumably they are all in writing in the evidence given before the Commission. It is not necessary to repeat a series of figures of this sort for us. You could pass on to something which would be less statistical.

 

DR. PELCKMANN: Very well.

 

Q. From the comparative figures of the draftees and the volunteers, one could say on the basis of your testimony that 40 to 50 per cent of those called to the Waffen SS were drafted forcibly. In your opinion, was this percentage the same at the end of the war?

 

A. No, by no means. At the end of the war we had about 550,000 men in the Waffen SS. Up to October, 1944, there were 320,000 known casualties including dead, missing, and seriously wounded. Considering that the majority of the dead were our volunteers - I know this from carefully compiled reports on casualties - it results from this that at the end of the war there were more draftees in the Waffen SS than volunteers.

 

Q. The Tribunal will be interested in knowing where you have received such accurate knowledge.

 

A. For four years I worked on this material. I prepared statistics and made reports so that I have retained these figures in mind very accurately. In my office in Berlin I handled card indexes, etc. They were there when I left in January, 1945.

 

Q. Particularly for the years 1943 and 1944 have you made it clear how many men were drafted into the Waffen SS. Statistics for the earlier years, 1940, 1941 and 1942, have not been compiled by the Commissions. Perhaps you could give us examples of how non-volunteers were taken into the Waffen SS at such an early period.

 

[Page 283]

 

A. Yes. I have already mentioned the 36,000 men who were drafted by emergency decrees. In addition, in 1940 we drafted men from the police to set up our Field Gendarmerie. We drafted men from the Reichspost to secure our Army mail. We drafted the civilian employees of the SS-Verfugungstruppe (Emergency Troops) in 1941. We frequently drafted personnel for our cavalry units from the army. I recall further that about 800 army men were drafted into the Waffen SS in the summer of 1941. Doctors and technicians also were drafted in 1940 and 1941 - in addition, resettled persons who had become subject to military duty. Yes, even with the resettlement details (Umsiedlungskommandos) we drafted men who did not report voluntarily. In 1942 we deviated considerably from the volunteer basis. About 15,000 racial Germans were drafted into our division "Prinz Eugen," about 10,000 men were drafted from the police and the army for the police division, and 2,000 men of the Reichspost who were with the army as so-called front auxiliaries were drafted into the Waffen SS. They were civilian post-office employees with the army.

 

Q. Can you recall the transfer, on Hitler's order, of whole formations of the Luftwaffe?

 

A. Yes, that was particularly in 1944. Also in 1943 units of the Luftwaffe were taken over. I recall, for example, an agreement of Reichsmarschall Goering with our commander, Sepp Dietrich, of March, 1943, when 3,000 men of the Luftwaffe were transferred. In 1944 many men were transferred from the army as well.

[Ken Estes]

An added question, could you be drafted into the S.S. as an officer?

Yes, the most urgent requirement was for trained general staff officers and several dozen were transferred from the army to the W-SS beginning in 1943. Himmler at first objected, esp when one notably asked to be returned to the army, being of a different political sensibility, but the needs persisted.

Details are in Bernd Wegner, Hitlers Politsche Soldaten: Die Waffen-SS 1933-45. Paderborn: Gerdinand Schöninger, 1982. Published in English as The Waffen-SS: Organization, Ideology and Function. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1990.

[DesertFox]

Yes, the most urgent requirement was for trained general staff officers and several dozen were transferred from the army to the W-SS beginning in 1943. Himmler at first objected, esp when one notably asked to be returned to the army, being of a different political sensibility, but the needs persisted.

Details are in Bernd Wegner, Hitlers Politsche Soldaten: Die Waffen-SS 1933-45. Paderborn: Gerdinand Schöninger, 1982. Published in English as The Waffen-SS: Organization, Ideology and Function. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1990.

 

Are there any sources which I might be able to look up my grandfather.....

According to my sister, she was told that he had died while in a POW camp but would have been tried for War Crimes if he had survive. Trying to find out more if at all possible.

[Sardaukar]

Try the contacts mentioned on this page:

 

http://www.feldgrau.com/contacts.html

[Ken Estes]

Personnel records for SS military personnel are reproduced on accessioned microfilm

publication A3343 received from the former Berlin Document Center (BDC)

under the following series designations: SS Officer Personnel Files, series SSO; SS

Enlisted Men Personnel Files, series SM; SS Women Personnel Files, series SF; and

SS Lists, series SS. Descriptions of the contents and arrangement of the records in

these series are available in the Microfilm Research Room at the National Archives

at College Park, MD.; a general finding aid to these and other microfilmed series

accessioned from the former BDC is The Holdings of the Berlin Document Center:

A Guide to the Collections (Berlin: Berlin Document Center, 1994).

 

Standard insert in intro to any of the W-SS doc finding aids of the US NARA.