Dambusters remembered 65 years ago

[Colin]

Great footage of a flying Lanc

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7404052.stm

[Dame Karmen]

Someone posted the links for that in the other forum I belong to

and I watched and read the stories. Amazing history!

[Captain Hurricane]

The last surviving pilot from the raid is Kiwi Les Munro - He's 89 but has travelled over in the UK for the 65th anniversary.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4550299a11.html

 

Be interesting to see Peter Jackson's version of the Dambusters movie when its finished....I imagine with his eye for detail and personal interest in WW1/2 aviation that it will be well worth seeing.

 

Cheers

[Corinthian]

I got goosebumps watching the report on BBC this morning. Must've been a thrill for that last Dambuster to see a Lanc fly along that reservoir.

[Cromwell]

Is it time, without any disrespect to those airman who fought for the skies of Europe, and without whom the War would not have been won for a free Europe to emerge from its ashes, to recognize that The Dambuster mission did very little to win the war in itself, it destroyed civilian infrastructure, killed a thousand civilians, and has since, or even was even approved of by the Air Ministry and Bomber Command solely for cynical reasons to act as an alibi for what technically was a deliberate policy of bombing millions of civilian men women and children in Germany and its allies for thousands of night and days. Today, if any nation was to do the same thing it would be universally condemned as a war crime. Imagine Israel destroying the High dam at Aswan. What a legal and moral quagmire: By modern legal rules of war and by some of the WW2 rules, Hitler and his henchmen could not be defeated.

[swerve]

Is it time, without any disrespect to those airman who fought for the skies of Europe, and without whom the War would not have been won for a free Europe to emerge from its ashes, to recognize that The Dambuster mission did very little to win the war in itself, it destroyed civilian infrastructure, killed a thousand civilians, ...

 

I've seen the figure of 1294 killed on the ground, the majority (749) being Ukrainian forced labourers in a camp below the Eder dam. An unintended consequence, of course.

Edited May 17, 2008 by swerve

[BansheeOne]

Casualty numbers vary between ca. 1,300 and 2,500 for all of Operation Chastise. There were definitely 1,200 killed in a POW camp below the Möhne dam. That would be in addition to the 749 Ukrainians at the Eder dam which aren't mentioned in all sources (some give the number of victims from the Eder hit as merely 50-70). It seems sure that the vast majority of dead were not German civilians, anyway. I don't think that was the primary intention either, though the very much intended effect on the Ruhr industry proved to be of little consequence, the dams being quickly repaired and never attacked again.

 

I favor the Carling beer ads commemorating the attacks at any rate.

[shep854]

I got goosebumps watching the report on BBC this morning. Must've been a thrill for that last Dambuster to see a Lanc fly along that reservoir.

 

Oh, wow. You just reminded me of an article I read a while back. The author was at an airshow, near a B-17. He described how an ambulance backed up to the crew door, and an old man on a stretcher was taken out and placed inside the bomber for a few minutes. He saw the man reach up and touch the aircraft. After a few minutes, he was returned to the abmbulance and it drove off. Just thinking of what must have been that ancient warrior's last goodbye is getting to me right now.

[Corinthian]

Oh, wow. You just reminded me of an article I read a while back. The author was at an airshow, near a B-17. He described how an ambulance backed up to the crew door, and an old man on a stretcher was taken out and placed inside the bomber for a few minutes. He saw the man reach up and touch the aircraft. After a few minutes, he was returned to the abmbulance and it drove off. Just thinking of what must have been that ancient warrior's last goodbye is getting to me right now.

 

WOW. That gave me goosebumps just reading it! I find such scenes touching/beautiful.

[shep854]

WOW. That gave me goosebumps just reading it! I find such scenes touching/beautiful.

 

TomasCTT, here's a link to the original article: http://www.airbum.com/grassroots/GrassrootsTailgunner.html

 

WARNING: It's gonna mess with you.

Edited May 20, 2008 by shep854

[T19]

Someone posted the links for that in the other forum I belong to

and I watched and read the stories. Amazing history!

 

My Uncle Johnny was a navigator on that mission. My Aunty Joan was a WAC and was using Morse code to communicate with the dambusters, and it was not till after the war did they realize that night they had been communicating with each other. In her last years I was always questioned by her on the use of Moorse in modern operations. I could never understand why she would be down when I said we no longer use it. Her last visit here, where she started to talk about the war, made me understand why Moorse was so important to her and her dead husband.

 

RIP

[Kit Hildreth]

Is it time, without any disrespect to those airman who fought for the skies of Europe, and without whom the War would not have been won for a free Europe to emerge from its ashes, to recognize that The Dambuster mission did very little to win the war in itself, it destroyed civilian infrastructure, killed a thousand civilians, and has since, or even was even approved of by the Air Ministry and Bomber Command solely for cynical reasons to act as an alibi for what technically was a deliberate policy of bombing millions of civilian men women and children in Germany and its allies for thousands of night and days. Today, if any nation was to do the same thing it would be universally condemned as a war crime. Imagine Israel destroying the High dam at Aswan. What a legal and moral quagmire: By modern legal rules of war and by some of the WW2 rules, Hitler and his henchmen could not be defeated.

 

Do remember that war is war and unlike many of the Israeli fracas, war was actually declared by the combatants. It was no more or less a war crime than the Incendiary raids on Coventry and other UK cities by the Luftwaffe in 1940. British "Terror Raids" on Germany gave the AirMin a raison d'etre. In turn, those led indirectly to the massacre of Belgian civilians and U.S soldiers as an act of vengeance during the Battle of the Bulge by incensed SS troops who'd been forced to clear up after one of those raids by American bombers...not to mention some British and U.S aircrew being killed out of hand, on landing by parachute after a raid: the lucky ones being rescued by the Luftwaffe!

As for defeating Hitler, one just has to listen to Israelis, the current U.S Administration, and Presidential candidates threatening Iran which itself has the titular backing of both Russia and China(nuclear powers remember) to realise that a modern Hitler or other "Bogeyman" would be dealt with in a similar manner. But with Nuclear weapons being used, make sure your bomb shelter has plenty of nice thick Polyethylene!

But the sad fact is that despite the epic nature of this magnificent Raid, the failure to destroy the Sorpe dam, which would have fulfilled Barnes Wallis intention of disrupting German Industry for some time(remember this was just before Operation Citadel in Russia, and would have left the Germans very short handed at a critical juncture) was not achieved and the casualty rate was very high even by Bomber Command standards. The effect on the air defenses against the "conventional" Allied air assault would also have been curtailed. It was also after this raid, that concerted efforts were made to disperse German Industry since the raid highlighted what should have been an obvious vulnerabilty.

Plus in 1943, 13 months before D-DAY the morale factor at home was VERY important: witness Churchill's defeat in June 1945 by a VERY war-weary public. This raid was a tremendous morale booster; the crew were were all crackerjack volunteers and enjoyed the demonstration of skill: a tradition continued by 617 sqd thereafter with the Tallboys and Grand Slams in precision raids.