Francis Gary Powers debrief document

[Slater]

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB74/U2-10.pdf

 

Above is one of probably several documents detailing the debrief of Francis Gary Powers after he was returned to US control following the U-2 shootdown incident.

 

Seems that he wasn't entirely familiar with the aircraft's self-destruct systems, and was hit at about 70,000 feet. Wasn't the SAM that got him an SA-1 or SA-2?

[Old Tanker]

From what I've read the self-destruct pacakage was a must per Ike and others in the top level.

But wasn't a big selling feature for the crews. It was a wink...wink..nod..nod kind of thing since Americans aren't big on commiting suicide.

[Josh]

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB74/U2-10.pdf

 

Above is one of probably several documents detailing the debrief of Francis Gary Powers after he was returned to US control following the U-2 shootdown incident.

 

Seems that he wasn't entirely familiar with the aircraft's self-destruct systems, and was hit at about 70,000 feet. Wasn't the SAM that got him an SA-1 or SA-2?

 

I believe SA-2. A large number were fired in salvo, like on the order of a dozen, and I've heard (myth?) that a MiG was shot down as well trying to do zoom climes to engage with AAMs.

[yak_v]

I believe SA-2. A large number were fired in salvo, like on the order of a dozen, and I've heard (myth?) that a MiG was shot down as well trying to do zoom climes to engage with AAMs.

 

Yes, one of the Migs was hit and the pilot was killed.

 

Vladimir

[Burncycle360]

n/m

Edited May 13, 2008 by Burncycle360

[Archie Pellagio]

Yes, one of the Migs was hit and the pilot was killed.

 

Vladimir

 

Reading the debrief i'm interested in the second parachute.

 

I assumed it was the pilot of the MiG-19 (or was it a Fishpot?) ejecting, but I always understood he died.

 

Any ideas? Falling debris like a wing falling with a feather like descent?

[Jim Martin]

It's always pissed me off that at CIA HQ they have a plaque with the names of all the U-2 pilots except Powers, because he didn't commit suicide. Pr!cks.

 

Maybe if they hadn't given him a plane that was known to be a serious piece of sh!t, to take on a record-setting flight, he'd not have been shot down.

[Mote]

Reading the debrief i'm interested in the second parachute.

 

I assumed it was the pilot of the MiG-19 (or was it a Fishpot?) ejecting, but I always understood he died.

 

Any ideas? Falling debris like a wing falling with a feather like descent?

 

Perhaps he ejected but did not survive the ejection for some reason?

 

Maybe if they hadn't given him a plane that was known to be a serious piece of sh!t, to take on a record-setting flight, he'd not have been shot down.

 

Why do you say that the plane was known to be a serious piece of shit? Are you referring to that particular aircraft or to the U-2 in general?

[Jim Martin]

Why do you say that the plane was known to be a serious piece of shit? Are you referring to that particular aircraft or to the U-2 in general?

 

 

That particular aircraft was known to have a history of being a serious problem child for maintenance issues. Everything from the autopilot going on the fritz (which it did during his flight) to engine problems (and his engine had a flame out while he attempted to evade the SAMs). He was sent on a record-breaking flight across the USSR, in a plane that had a maintenance track record which showed it to be a total dog.

[Ssnake]

That particular aircraft ... engine problems (and his engine had a flame out while he attempted to evade the SAMs).

From where did you get that?

In this debriefing there is not a single line supporting the idea that he was actively evading SAMs and that his engine stalled in the process. He performed a planned course change, was hit while jotting down course and altitude in his log, then he gets to see the sky turn orange, feel a little push from behind, and the right wing goes down. He bring it up, and the nose goes down. He tries to pull but there isn't anything to pull anymore, probably because the tail's gone already. Then the engine RPM goes down and after some struggle with the ejector seat in a spinning stall he manages to get out and that was that.

 

The suggestion that he was dodging SAMs left and right and was shot down because his engine had a flame out is ... wildly off, judging from his statements in this debriefing.

[Arthur Hubers]

There was a claim about 10-15 years ago by a soviet fighter pilot that this is what he did, since in order to get the altitude his aircraft wasnt carrying any weapons.

ISTR the unarmed aircraft which went up to intercept Powers was a Su-9, which happened to be on a delivery flight in the area. This was followed by armed two MiG-19s, one of which was shot down by one of the SA-2s.

 

Mind you, the U-2 would not have needed a direct hit or even a proximity-fuse detonated blast of fragments. A nearby blast of an explosion (or indeed jetwash of a missile or other aircraft) could well have stalled the U-2 beyond recovery. Those original U-2s had a very, very narrow margin between Vmax and stall speed.

[Ssnake]

I recall there was some interesting speculation in the book 'Skunk Works' by Ben Rich that Kelly Johnson thought possible that it wasnt a Sam at all the brought the aircraft. Apparently it was thought possible that if a Mig (or SU for that matter) had been in a zoom climb and passed close enough to the aircraft, the shockwave may have knocked the tail off.

It may be an "interesting" speculation but it remains speculation in the first place and is at odds with Powers' testimony that the sky went orange. That definitely sounds to me like a SAM going off with some proximity to the aircraft. It's the sort of explanation with the least amount of assumptions necessary to work.

[Ssnake]

I agree with you that the lack of fragment holes is irritating, but if it was far enough away it still is possible. Powers didn't get to see and investigate all parts so he may have missed the one or other hole in the tail or belly. Clearly the tail broke off due to a kind of concussion load (whether induced by a near-missing aircraft or a missile detonation).

 

Still. How likely is it that planes that were in the vicinity could actually reach 70,000 feet and that a pilot of such a plane would be both willing and able to ram the U2 under these extremely difficult conditions (provided that it would be possible to reach that height he'd have to start the climb in a very narrow window to reach the U2 just in the right place at more or less the top of his near-parabolic flight trajectory). That's very, very, very, very, very unlikely without assistance, and even if there was a flight controller directing the guy you'd have to assume that they practiced this (with what?) before and that it would have been considered a viable strategy. Even today radars aren't precise enough to guarantee that interceptor jets will always gather a visual on their target (easier in this case since no clouds would have blocked the view), but the hypothetical jet in the U2 case would have had the choice of improving his guidance by chasing the U2 (which is probably energetically impossible) or with some sort of head-on vector which might be possible from a purely flight dynamics oriented point of view but at the serious disadvantage of dramatically reducing the reaction times of the attacking pilot while in a rather wonky flight situation.

 

On the other hand, missiles and radar guidance - isn't it much simpler to try and improve the peak height of an interceptor missile after years of U2 frustration, or at least fire a few SAMs and hope for a lucky punch since that way you can prove to your superiors and the Kremlin that you at least gave it a try.

 

Which theory requires fewer assumptions?

[Arthur Hubers]

Hmm, I see it does. I wouldnt mind looking this puppy over.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Francis...2_at_Moscow.jpg

They don't like people touching it...

[Arthur Hubers]

I think its a bit past being damaged, dont you?

The problem is people doing amateur aviation archaeology: "Look what I've excavated from this museum!"

[Jim Martin]

From where did you get that?

In this debriefing there is not a single line supporting the idea that he was actively evading SAMs and that his engine stalled in the process. He performed a planned course change, was hit while jotting down course and altitude in his log, then he gets to see the sky turn orange, feel a little push from behind, and the right wing goes down. He bring it up, and the nose goes down. He tries to pull but there isn't anything to pull anymore, probably because the tail's gone already. Then the engine RPM goes down and after some struggle with the ejector seat in a spinning stall he manages to get out and that was that.

 

The suggestion that he was dodging SAMs left and right and was shot down because his engine had a flame out is ... wildly off, judging from his statements in this debriefing.

 

 

I've seen this and read of this in a number of places, unfortunately a quick google does not have anything to say about the maintenance status of the aircraft. But it's been on multiple occasions, multiple sources where I've read of aircraft malfunction, and the fact that the plane was a known maintenance hog.

[Ssnake]

I'm not debating the fact that it was a problematic aircraft with many maintenance issues. But your initial statement suggested that the reason why he was ultimately shot down was that his jet engines had a flameout during his attempts to dodge incoming missiles. He didn't dodge. And if there was a flameout, it occurred only after the tail was gone. Therefore I have a hard time making the connection between the maintenance status of his U2 and the ending of his flight, dangling on a parachute. From what I'm reading in this debrief he would have been shot down just as well in an aircraft that was in pristine condition.

[Jim Martin]

I'm not debating the fact that it was a problematic aircraft with many maintenance issues. But your initial statement suggested that the reason why he was ultimately shot down was that his jet engines had a flameout during his attempts to dodge incoming missiles. He didn't dodge. And if there was a flameout, it occurred only after the tail was gone. Therefore I have a hard time making the connection between the maintenance status of his U2 and the ending of his flight, dangling on a parachute. From what I'm reading in this debrief he would have been shot down just as well in an aircraft that was in pristine condition.

 

His autopilot shut down on the way to the target area. He said later that if he'd been closer to his originating point, he'd have aborted, but he was so far along that he continued the mission. Loss of autopilot contributed significantly to pilot workload, making it far less likely that he would have seen inbound missiles. As he noted, he didn't know he was being shot at until he was hit. At the time he was engaged in multiple tasks along with flying the plane. And the autopilot on that bird was also known to be flaky.

[Josh]

It doesn't seem likely he would have had any indication he was being fired upon regardless. Also had he known, there is little a U-2 could do except perhaps he could allow his plane to drift higher by running his engine up. 'The box' on a U-2 was IIRC 10knts, between like 450knts and 460knts. He wasn't going to do any hard turns or any manuver that would shake a SAM, and in any case the SA-2 is practically ballistic at that altitude so manuvering wouldn't necessarily throw the SAM off (assuming he could even see it in that cockpit arrangement). He may have been treated poorly for not committing suicide but there was nothing he could have done and nothing anyone could do with that type of aircraft. If they wanted it to be a suicide mission they should have just deleted the ejector seat and parachute.

[Mote]

How was he supposed to know without RWR gear anyhow, which wasn't installed for a few more years iirc?

[Jim Martin]

It doesn't seem likely he would have had any indication he was being fired upon regardless. Also had he known, there is little a U-2 could do except perhaps he could allow his plane to drift higher by running his engine up. 'The box' on a U-2 was IIRC 10knts, between like 450knts and 460knts. He wasn't going to do any hard turns or any manuver that would shake a SAM, and in any case the SA-2 is practically ballistic at that altitude so manuvering wouldn't necessarily throw the SAM off (assuming he could even see it in that cockpit arrangement). He may have been treated poorly for not committing suicide but there was nothing he could have done and nothing anyone could do with that type of aircraft. If they wanted it to be a suicide mission they should have just deleted the ejector seat and parachute.

 

 

B-52's aren't the best at maneuvering either, but my Dad who served in Linebacker II gave indication that a BUFF could attempt evasive maneuvers against a SA-2.

 

He came close to having to bail out over Hanoi; pilot gave the bailout warning light to the aircrew, and he was prepped to go when the SAM detonated prematurely.

 

Apparently, if you turned into the missile, and then attempted to move laterally away from it, you could tell if it was still tracking on you if it remained in dead center of your field of view. The missile in question remained centered in the pilot's field of view, and closing. The pilot thought they were done.

[Josh]

B-52's aren't the best at maneuvering either, but my Dad who served in Linebacker II gave indication that a BUFF could attempt evasive maneuvers against a SA-2.

 

He came close to having to bail out over Hanoi; pilot gave the bailout warning light to the aircrew, and he was prepped to go when the SAM detonated prematurely.

 

Apparently, if you turned into the missile, and then attempted to move laterally away from it, you could tell if it was still tracking on you if it remained in dead center of your field of view. The missile in question remained centered in the pilot's field of view, and closing. The pilot thought they were done.

 

B-52's I believe attempted, sometimes successfully, to turn down towards the missile to gain speed then vere off to one side as the range closed to make the azimuth change too rapidly for the missile to successfully guide. At least I think this was the tactic for small tactical a/c, but I believe also for B-52 as well. Obviously your father would know far more about it than I...

 

As unmanuverable as a B-52 is, a U-2 is even more so a straight line aircraft at its opperating altitude (at least the early models flow at the time we are discussing). As was mentioned, it's popularly believed a U-2 could be in a turn with one wing in a stall while the other was being sheared off the air frame.

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

B-52's aren't the best at maneuvering either, but my Dad who served in Linebacker II gave indication that a BUFF could attempt evasive maneuvers against a SA-2.

 

He knew he was being fired at, so he could try to manuover to avoid the incoming missile. Powers had no RWR so he didn`t knew he was being fired at. I doubt he would be able to detect visually the missile launch footprints from his position.......