Paratroopers During WW2

[BillB]

Since you seem to have waived the restriction against remote psychoanalysis with comments like "small man syndrome", I'll limit myself to this observation -- you can take the man out of the gutter, but you can't take the gutter out of the man, and that really defines who is "small" around here..

My, I must have touched a nerve if you are trying to fall back on the ROEs. So now I've shifted in a flash from inhabiting an academic ivory tower to being a guttersnipe. Consistency really isn't your strong point, is it, and for someone who purports to be a scientist you have the technique of conjuring up huge conclusipns from little to no evidence down to a fine art. Personally, I'd rather live in the gutter than on the sidewalk if it meant I didn't have to associate with self-opinionated, embittered snobs whose world view is shaped by the bag of chips they carry on each shoulder

 

I haven't waived anything of the sort dear boy, because that would be a breach of the ROEs. *You* are the one who repeatedly insists that his personal unsupported opinions are superior to everyone elses and are of equal validity to opinions based on validated research. You are the one who insists on bandying obscure words about. You are the one who keeps erroneously harping on about me being an intellectual and academic despite my corrections, presumably because the imaginary construct sits more comfortably with your personal prejudices. You, for reasons best known to yourself, are the one who keeps dragging academe into things. You need look no further than your disparaging and unwarranted use of the word "professor" in your needlessly aggressive first contribution in this thread, or how you tried to turn the thread about WW1 lectures into an academic willy waving contest. Consequently there is no "remote psychoanalysis", merely an objective observation of evidence freely provided by you.

 

Now, if you have anything of value to add to the thread (that's value to the topic & discussion, not to your ego, BTW) lests see it. Otherwise jog on and drag someone elses thread off topic into Tony Land.

 

BillB

[BillB]

Could this have been a less-than-clear reference to earlier experiences of the US paras?

 

During the invasion of Sicily many of the US paras were indeed given the "GO" signal while their planes were still offshore, sometimes miles off shore. Many soldiers were lost.

 

-Mark 1

Mebbe, altho they drowned a fair frew British glider soldiers off Sicily too, and at least one stick of paratroopers went into the crater of Mount Etna.

 

BillB

[BillB]

Can't find a reference right now, but I recall reading that a few (a couple of plane loads out of quite a few overa 100) paratroopers overshot the cotentin peninsula and dropped in the English channel.

 

Some others were drowned in the swamps along the Mederet River, but from experience in ABN operations, I doubt it would happen in only 2-3 feet, unless the jumper were injured or knocked unconscious (I guess that would count as injured). I've never been so tangled that I couldn't sit up, which would get your head out of 2-3 feet of whater.

The flood water was up to 12 feet deep in places, not just 2-3. With ref to you being able to sit up, remember that the US paratroopers in Normandy didn't use containers, and had all their kit strapped around their bodies. One participant from the 101st remembered carrying his M1 & 100+ rounds, a .45 pistol, two cans of .30 belt, a Hawkins mine, a Gammon bomb, six frag grenades, two smoke grenades, four blocks of explosive, three first aid kits, three days K rations, two days D rations, an air ID panel, webbing & musette bag, canteen, entrenching tool, groundsheet, blanket, socks & underwear and two uniforms plus steel helmet, main & reserve parachute. In some instances guys were carrying their own body weight and there are numerous participant accounts referring to blokes having to be helped to their feet after strapping on their parachutes, and being manhandled into the aircraft. Some British leg-bags were issued at the last minute but from what I can gather they just used them to carry extra stuff, not for their normal kit. Given all that I suspect 3 feet of water might have been more than enough, especially if the guy came in backwards or landed hard after being dropped too low.

 

BillB

[Guest aevans]

Several hundred "administratives" dropped in to secure an airfield...guess all of those S1 types lined it with red tape; would explain the mongolian style CF which currently exist.

 

Actually, the field was several kilometers from the front, and secured by Kurdish peshmerga -- a fact widely reported at the time.

[Guest aevans]

*You* are the one who repeatedly insists that his personal unsupported opinions are superior to everyone elses and are of equal validity to opinions based on validated research. You are the one who insists on bandying obscure words about.

 

Akshully, I don't have a problem with intellectuals and academia. I have a problem with pseudointellectuals and jumped-up caste straddlers. Which I'm sure will make me even more of a "snob" in your opinion. Guilty as charged. I think people that can't put their origins behind them, especially when they qualify themselves for a higher station in life, are frightful bounders. I'm sure many of your colleagues feel the same, even if they won't say it to your face. I'll bet you're quite the little token Eliza Doolitle around the faculty spaces at your uni.

Edited May 3, 2008 by aevans

[Sikkiyn]

Actually, the field was several kilometers from the front, and secured by Kurdish peshmerga -- a fact widely reported at the time.

 

Your statement of "administrative jump" was just too good too pass up on a smart-arsed reply. The thought of hundreds of typewriters falling from the sky was enough to produce laughter.

[Guest aevans]

Your statement of "administrative jump" was just too good too pass up on a smart-arsed reply. The thought of hundreds of typewriters falling from the sky was enough to produce laughter.

 

Ahhh...I get it. But "administrative" is the propert term for a non-tactical movement, even if carried out with tactical vehicles such as troop transport a/c and parachutes.

[Daan]

In his book "The Lost Battle, Crete 1941" Callum MacDonald notes German paratroopers drowning in the Alikianos water reservoir (from Derpa's 2nd batallion). He also describes forty paratroopers of Ramcke's reserve batallion being caught in a breeze and carried to the sea where they drowned (near Travonitis): "their parachute canopies spreading over the water like huge white flowers".

[Sikkiyn]

Ahhh...I get it. But "administrative" is the propert term for a non-tactical movement, even if carried out with tactical vehicles such as troop transport a/c and parachutes.

 

A decent story of a few of the events can be found at the following link.

173rd Iraq

Edited May 4, 2008 by Sikkiyn

[Guest aevans]

A decent story of a few of the events can be found at the following link.

173rd Iraq

 

Hehe -- quite a clever bit of propaganda, that. The "largely unapposed" drop was into a totally secured airfeild. I recall quite clearly watching a TV report that evening showing a peshmerga soldier sitting on a rock, smoking a cig, watching the drop. The 173rd soldiers, after hitting the deck, rolled up their chutes and staged along the side of a road just like they were on a training DZ at Bragg.

[Old Tanker]

It was also reported that during the jump in Normandy an unknown quantity of AB were dropped below 500' and their chutes never opened in time .

 

Tha main thing about most of the U.S. Airborne was the elan they developed. The early units could turnover 100 volunteers to get 40 that measured up.

 

This also had long hard training and highly rated officers. Plus they went into combat double officered at the lower ranks. Along with being trained with the idea of being surrounded is good since the enemy is easier to find.

 

Don't know how much of that elan is left today but it was still around in the '60s.

[DougRichards]

I am sure that BillB can provide more information re this (I am working from a very old memory since I read of it), but wasn't there an incident where both British paratroops and German Fallschirmjäger were tasked with dropping on the same target at the same time - possibly in North Africa - the Germans got there first and the British forces actually saw the drop taking place?

 

The Brits then deciding that the best course was to fly home again.

 

I think that was the closest that a battle between airdropped forces ever occurred in WW2.

[Sikkiyn]

Hehe -- quite a clever bit of propaganda, that. The "largely unapposed" drop was into a totally secured airfeild. I recall quite clearly watching a TV report that evening showing a peshmerga soldier sitting on a rock, smoking a cig, watching the drop. The 173rd soldiers, after hitting the deck, rolled up their chutes and staged along the side of a road just like they were on a training DZ at Bragg.

 

I don't see where a rememberance site is propaganda?

this message brought to you by the vast right-wing, nwo conspiracy association. In conjunction with elvis-51 enterprises.

 

No one is contesting that the Kurds held the airfield already, though it is interesting to read some of the soldiers reports.

 

******************************

 

Haven't run across one with falling typewriters yet -- googling for laptops though!

Edited May 5, 2008 by Sikkiyn

[BillB]

I am sure that BillB can provide more information re this (I am working from a very old memory since I read of it), but wasn't there an incident where both British paratroops and German Fallschirmjäger were tasked with dropping on the same target at the same time - possibly in North Africa - the Germans got there first and the British forces actually saw the drop taking place?

 

The Brits then deciding that the best course was to fly home again.

 

I think that was the closest that a battle between airdropped forces ever occurred in WW2.

Also going from memory, I believe the double-use DZ incident occurred in North Africa as described. On 13 July 1943 elements of the 1st Fallschirmjager Division carried out a reinforcing drop near the Primasole Bridge south of Catania in Sicily, and after dark the same day the 1st Parachute Brigade dropped into the same area to seize the bridge...

 

BillB

[Delta tank 6]

The only one blasting in here was you, as per usual. Don't let anything get in the way of a good bit of contrarian ranting, eh Tony. Things have moved on quite a bit since A Bridge Too Far. You might like to try my 2001 work on the subject, it's gone into two editions so I must be doing something right...

Yet another example of The Chief Contrarian basing his opinions on personal prejudice rather than objectivity. I give credit or whatever where it's due, not on national or any other lines. It's a lesson that you clearly missed in your own academic career, despite the summa cum laude. Must have been all the time you spent sycophantically regurgitating what people wanted to hear rather than having the courage of your convictions and exercising a bit of individualism and critical thinking. Ref your jaw, just leave it on the floor , hopefully some right thinking individual will put a size nine boot into it.

 

BillB

 

 

BillB,

 

What is the name of your book? always interested in a good read.

 

Mike

[DougRichards]

Also going from memory, I believe the double-use DZ incident occurred in North Africa as described. On 13 July 1943 elements of the 1st Fallschirmjager Division carried out a reinforcing drop near the Primasole Bridge south of Catania in Sicily, and after dark the same day the 1st Parachute Brigade dropped into the same area to seize the bridge...

 

BillB

 

I googlefoo'd that as well, but it isn't the one I was thinking of: my scotch and port infected brain is probably playing tricks on me. The old RAM isn't what it used to be.

 

I was sure that the Brits didn't drop in the incident that I was dredging from my memory. The 'Battle of Primasole Bridge' would have been a specially brutal affair, with two groups of paras going at each other, elite versus elite.

[DougRichards]

Apart from anything else, what about the gliders that broke up over the Channel, at least one depositing an M22, and all the accompanying humanity, in the cold sea?

[BillB]

I googlefoo'd that as well, but it isn't the one I was thinking of: my scotch and port infected brain is probably playing tricks on me. The old RAM isn't what it used to be.

 

I was sure that the Brits didn't drop in the incident that I was dredging from my memory. The 'Battle of Primasole Bridge' would have been a specially brutal affair, with two groups of paras going at each other, elite versus elite.

No mate, I was unclear. There was an incident in North Africa where a Brit para battalion aborted a jump because the Germans were already dropping onto the same DZ. As for the Primasole Bridge being brutal, well I've seen testimony from a FJ officer invoilved sayng that the British paras he captured were not up to much and did not seem to know what they were doing...

 

BillB

[BillB]

Apart from anything else, what about the gliders that broke up over the Channel, at least one depositing an M22, and all the accompanying humanity, in the cold sea?

It was a Tetrarch Doug, the 6th Airborne Div didn't use M22s until the Rhine crossings the following year. AFAIK the Hamilcar didn't break up; the tank it was carrying came unshackled somehow and went through the nose. Not nice either way though.

 

BillB

[Rubberneck]

US SF was already at the drop zone and had secured it with help of Kurdish peshmerga. It was, for all intents and purposes, a jump into an airfield that was secured.

 

Several hundred "administratives" dropped in to secure an airfield...guess all of those S1 types lined it with red tape; would explain the mongolian style CF which currently exist.

[Rubberneck]

The Soviets, for all the theory and exercises they placed into their Airborne forces, used them rarely in WWII.

 

After Crete, there were some small level German drops (BDE and below) but that was the last large scall drop.

 

The ones that interest me the most, because I have no knowledge at all on them, are the American drops in the Pacific theater. Any help?

[DemolitionMan]

The Soviets, for all the theory and exercises they placed into their Airborne forces, used them rarely in WWII.

 

Not so rarely as you might think: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/download/csipubs/glantz.pdf

[BillB]

The Soviets, for all the theory and exercises they placed into their Airborne forces, used them rarely in WWII.

 

After Crete, there were some small level German drops (BDE and below) but that was the last large scall drop.

 

The ones that interest me the most, because I have no knowledge at all on them, are the American drops in the Pacific theater. Any help?

Ref the first bit, the Sovs actually used their airborne forces more than is popularly realised in the West. They carried out three multi-brigade operations at Viaz'ma (Jan-Feb 1942), Demiansk (Feb-April 1942) and in the Dnieper crossings (September 1943). Long time since I looked at it, bit IIRC they were hamstrung by a lack of transport aircraft. Have a look at David M. Glantz The History of Soviet Airborne Forces (Essex: Frank Cass, 1994).

 

Ref the last part, get hold of a copy of Gerard M. Devlin Paratrooper! The Saga of US Army and Marine Parachute and Glider Troops During World War II (New York: St Martin's Press, 1979). The following chapters should be of interest:

 

10. Nadzab Airfield

15. Noemfoor Island

19. Leyte

20. Liberation of Manila

21. Corregidor

22. Los Banos Prison Liberation

24. Occupation of Japan

 

BillB

[RETAC21]

I haven't seen in the thread the Von der Heydte jump during the Ardennes battle as well as the SS raid to seize Tito.

[DemolitionMan]

I haven't seen in the thread the Von der Heydte jump during the Ardennes battle as well as the SS raid to seize Tito.

 

Which thread?This one? If not, I can only point to the links I´ve given in my second post here for a really great list of WW2 jumps of all nations.

Edited May 5, 2008 by DemolitionMan