Warhammer 40,000

[Bearded-Dragon]

I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in the Gamers' Forum or one of the serious armour forums.

 

My son has become very interested in Warhammer 40,000. I've been looking at the models and while they are interesting, even to my untrained eye they look very strange and appear, despite supposedly belonging to an advanced civilisation, rather well, unscientific, particularly compared with even late 20th or early 21st century Earth armoured vehicles. Their designers appear to have decided to ignore the lessons armoured designers in this era and place have learnt through hard research and experience in favour of rather, shall we say baroque designs. Despite the use of equivalent or supposedly more powerful weapons the lack of sloping, composite or active armour doesn't seem to be used and there appears to be no room inside the vehicles for the breaches of weapons, ammunition handling, ammunition or recoil (for projectile weapons) . The armour plates that are used, are invariably pierced by numerous weakpoints as weapons protrude from every surface. There appears to be in most designs no room for a powerplant (unless of course they are using some mythical form of power which requires little room). The SP gun design, has only a flimsy armoured shield, which would be totally inadequate if air bursting counter-battery munitions were used against them. I suspect that if such vehicles were to encounter their early 21st century equivalents, unless equipped with some form of mythical super-dense armour, they'd be toast.

 

Similar things could be said about the infantry weapons and armour.

 

While I appreciate this is of course a game and something which is intended to be fun, I wonder if it would be worth discussing these vehicles in a semi-serious fashion, comparing their designs with what we have.

[Jacques]

Warhammer 40K, and lets face it, a lot of the "future war" stuff, is more art than fact/science. Most often it is meant to inspire and offer a creative outlet, like Dungeons and Dragons, rather than to teach or recreate (or to make future engineers). If it really concerns you, there are many realistic war games out there.

 

Otherwise, enjoy the show...I do. The miniature builders can be very creative and are top notch, and some of the designs that come out are stellar. I myself am not a W40K fan, but I enjoy it when I see it.

[a77]

Remember it is SF. How many morden tanks have sigill/runes to protect agenst daemons

 

In the strory of 40k after a galactic scale cataclysm much of the technology have been lost, and the engineer do not realy know how the machines work, they can "onlye" copy it. Hence WW1 shock absorber on a fusion reactor powerd tank. Include a Inquisition who see almost evrething new as heresy..... and the lack of knowleage of the model maker..... and more sf stuff like void shelds....

[flamingknives]

The other aspects of the WH40k universe which isn't so much reflected in model design, but can be used to explain it, is that the Imperium is shockingly callous with regards to the lives of it's troops - human life is cheap so why bother to go with the best design, especially when the ground forces are really only an adjunct to the Naval forces.

 

On top of that there are the logisitics aspects of a universe where not only are the journey times between locations long, but they are also unpredictable. The end user needs something simple that can be maintained in the field with the available technology, the level of which varies quite significantly. It's not like you can send a Leman Russ back to a Forgeworld to be reset.

 

Then you have issues like knowing what terrain it will be facing. These tanks would face nearly any environment from 0.3 to 2g surface gravity (unlikely that planets outside that range would be worth fighting over, as quick finger in the air range), from desert to rainforest to artic waste, from flat to mountainous and against enemies as varied as an advanced xenos race with anti-grav tanks and energy weapons to a primitive tribal culture with projectile weapons or civil insurrection.

 

Advanced technology also runs into problems when sentient machines are considered heresy (and in a largely theocratic police state charges of heresy are somewhat problematic) so you can't really innovate in that regard in case someone in authority gets the wrong idea.

 

The models are large and clumsy, in part to permit easy recognition and in part to survive on a tabletop battlefield or in a transit case. Plus the game designers don't really have a scientific background.

[Matt Urbanski]

The models are large and clumsy, in part to permit easy recognition and in part to survive on a tabletop battlefield or in a transit case. Plus the game designers don't really have a scientific background.

 

I think that's by far the most important issue - the models need to be simple to recognize and to have a unified theme. If it's sleek and fast-looking, it's Eldar. If it looks like it was banged together by a blacksmith, it's Ork. If it looks like it's based on a British tank of pre-WWII vintage, it's Empire. (especially because everyone is free to paint the vehicles any way they want to, and they have no national emblems as such)

 

Though really, the thing to remember about Warhammer 40,000 (and Games Workshop in general - aside from the occasional great game like Blood Bowl) is that what you actually need to do is gently detach your kid from it and get him involved with something else... because 40K really has no redeeming features. The minis are horribly overpriced. The rules are crap - not written with the intent of making a good wargame, but to keep the games short and to appeal to kids, and to sell as many minis as possible. New editions are introduced periodically simply to make older miniatures and armies outdated. New units - which are measurably better than old ones - are also a frequent thing, forcing people to buy more minis or have a qualitative disadvantage on the battlefield. And let's not even get into the background fiction...

[Guest bojan]

I would agree and disagree a bit with a last post - rules wise it is nothing accurate, but I have failed to find any other SF wargame with workable rules. It is a beer and pretzel game and nothing more w/o any claim of historical acuracy.

Models wise I have Imperial Guard where majority of models were collected by friend some 10 years ago - and all of it with exception of one vehicle* is usable. Sure, newer things are sometimes better, but not always. Things also change but change from last to current Imperial guard book only added options. While there is a claim that new models are always better then older rules-wise there are also loads of new models that are not...

On the other hand minis are expensive with decent army starting at 300+ Euro.

Positive side is that you have incredible freedom when making/modifying models - as long it looks like tank, has a BFG, and is vaguely same dimensions as original it is OK - you even might get award at the tournament***... As long it has a BFG, and looks like sp-artillery piece it is OK etc. Examples :

Bradley look-alike APC: http://s11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progre...?showtopic=2002

Tiger look-alike tank: http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progre...=1778&st=30

Stug look-alike tank destroyer: http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progre...?showtopic=5328

etc...

 

*Griffon sp-mortar, thou there are "unofficial"** rules for it.

**You can use it when playing with friends, it is no-no for tournaments.

[FlyingCanOpener]

And let's not even get into the background fiction...

 

The WH40k backstory is fantasticly campy. I quote it all the time in class considering I have a couple of kids who are into it.

[Matt Urbanski]

Models wise I have Imperial Guard where majority of models were collected by friend some 10 years ago - and all of it with exception of one vehicle* is usable. Sure, newer things are sometimes better, but not always. Things also change but change from last to current Imperial guard book only added options. While there is a claim that new models are always better then older rules-wise there are also loads of new models that are not...

 

Eh. In my experience, the staff at the GW stores can be extremely pissy about what they'll allow you to use... all equipment needs to be represented on the model, etc. Also, a lot of the time - not all of the time, you're right, but too often for my taste - while you can use the old stuff, it's just not worth it.

 

Mainly, I just wish their damn stores were places you could play Blood Bowl, or Necromunda... or even Battlefleet Gothic. But if it's not 40K, or maybe Warhammer Fantasy, they don't give a shit. At best, they have those games around as "gateway drugs" to get you hooked and then get you playing 40K and spending $500 on armies...

[Guest bojan]

Eh. In my experience, the staff at the GW stores can be extremely pissy about what they'll allow you to use...

Could be difference between US and UK branch - a friend went to a 2006. GT with all of his Orks mounted in ZiL trucks (somewhat modified but bloody obviously ZiLs - whole army was made to look like Soviets) and had no problem, even got into competition for best looking army...

 

all equipment needs to be represented on the model, etc.

OK, that was newer a problem with imperial guard - no one gets anything so they could stay cheep... Guess that chaos pplayers could have few problems... And if you are not a tournament player that is even smaller problem...

Also, a lot of the time - not all of the time, you're right, but too often for my taste - while you can use the old stuff, it's just not worth it.

 

I don't know - I have no problems* with my (almost) all-metal Cadian force - some people even like "old style" look...

 

Mainly, I just wish their damn stores were places you could play Blood Bowl, or Necromunda... or even Battlefleet Gothic. But if it's not 40K, or maybe Warhammer Fantasy, they don't give a shit. At best, they have those games around as "gateway drugs" to get you hooked and then get you playing 40K and spending $500 on armies...

 

I play Necromunda occasionally (even using non-GW models) and BB is played regularly here...

 

*Other then weighting a ton and being not really greatly painted - legacy of the "red phase**" from 10 years ago...

**Where everyone painted everything bright red - so all weapons are red...

[Briganza]

I would also suggest that they have evolved form the first design many years ago and are now trapped. Armour was not in the original game and the person who designed the first APC looked around for inspiration at WW2. This set the standard on which all SM vehicles are based. The introduction of the IG has let them digress slightly but still need to keep the flavour of the SM style.

 

If you want modern then look to the Tau who have sleek aerodynamic vehicles. Being a totally new race that has not evolved from the other ones and had a new start. All the others arrived in dribs and drabs but the Tau came on as a complete concept.

 

The vehicles for each race has a concept and follows the race theme. The Orks are stuck together with black nasty and could go bang at any time and the SM are old.

 

Matt I would agree with you on many of you gripes with the company business plan but I would also point out that they do provide a safe friendly environment for children to play (I can only speak for the UK). And having taken my son many times and the children of my friend and their friends to Nottingham on many occasion I think the good out weighs the bad. I have always found the tips to GW in Nottingham inspirational and compared to fighting Napoleonic armies they are not that costly.

[Guest bojan]

...Napoleonic armies...

 

Real man play ECW, preferably with Montrose Scots.

[Bearded-Dragon]

Thanks for all your replies. Personally, I'd rather he was wargaming a historical period, such as well virtually any of them. Warhammer appears to be very much a marketing ploy by Games Workshop - kids read the magazine, buy the models, buy the plaints, the glue, the tools, the scenery, do everything the GW way, and so only GW models/figures are allowed in GW competitions.

 

I feel that I could more than likely scratchbuild (Bojan thanks for those links) most of the vehicles by converting modern/WWII AFVs or even creating new ones, which look more sensible and intelligent, than the ones GW sells. However, I suspect if I did so, if my son used them, he wouldn't be allowed to use them at the GW shops. As far as I'm aware, there is only one non-GW controlled Warhammer Club where we are situated and its on the very opposite corner of the suburbs from where we are.

 

I'm going to try and steer him towards other pursuits, I think. If he takes up a historical period he'll learn both a bit of history and not be locked into only one supplier.

[Jacques]

My guess is the problem come from organizers and shop owners, not necessarily GWS. Yes, I think GWS has a marketing plan to get as many people to buy as much stuff as possible, but I would also imagine that any shop owner who carries the stuff ends up getting tied into a "garuntee" of buying...ie, they need to purchase X amount of GWS stuff a month/year to keep the right to sell it, with the "license" run either by GWS or more likely the importer (for all us non UK folk). Now add in the crappy US dollar, the SOARING cost of the mini's, rules, etc... and the economy weakening...and those shop owners are probably panicking over it a bit...it is one heck of an investment for them.

 

Also, add in the meglo-maniacs and anal-retentive micro-manager players/organizers/clubs and the joy cn get sucked out real fast.

 

Your best bet, seriously, is to find a good group to join and it will be worlds better fun for all.

 

And I have seen this sort of non-sense from historical gamers too, so don't think it is just a W4K issue. (the Soviets never had a T-34/85 with those tacticle markings so you cannot use that in MY game...)

[Guest bojan]

...but I would also imagine that any shop owner who carries the stuff ends up getting tied into a "garuntee" of buying...ie, they need to purchase X amount of GWS stuff a month/year to keep the right to sell it, with the "license" run either by GWS or more likely the importer...

 

Depends on the level of license, but retailers license requires to spend ~6K British pounds per YEAR to keep their status. Even our small local store gets ~ 15K pounds per year worth of stuff. They get stuff at 41% (somewhat less for really large retailers) of the catalog price. Even including shipping and handling profit margin is 15-25% of their sail price. GW also allows sort of "credit" w/o interest, expecialy if store is in the area where there was not one previously - that is how local store started, they literary borrowed 5K pounds worth of stuff from GW, which they repayed in next 3-4 orders.

[Jacques]

15-25% profit AFTER shipping is pretty horrible. S/H should only be 10% at MOST. And I do not know who imports their items into the USA...if GWS does it themselves or if they have a "independant contractor". That said, I know importers keep trying to increase their margins right now...

[Guest bojan]

S/H should only be 10% at MOST

 

Unfortunately not from UK to Serbia... Here is a breakdown of costs of the last order at local store:

 

3000 pounds order (sales value ~ 7300)

500 pounds S&H (it is not GW doing S&H)

18% customs - 630 pounds

local transport ~100 pounds

Then there is a store location rental, ~200 pounds per month, they sell above order in ~2 months so it is another 400 pounds.

Salaries, for people working there - 200 pounds per month 9that is about average salary in Serbia) , again that is 1200 for 3 persons working there for 2 months.

So total is 5830/7300 - ~80%.

So total profit is ~20% to invest in further development of the sales/store etc.

Edited March 26, 2008 by bojan

[nitflegal]

I think that's by far the most important issue - the models need to be simple to recognize and to have a unified theme. If it's sleek and fast-looking, it's Eldar. If it looks like it was banged together by a blacksmith, it's Ork. If it looks like it's based on a British tank of pre-WWII vintage, it's Empire. (especially because everyone is free to paint the vehicles any way they want to, and they have no national emblems as such)

 

Though really, the thing to remember about Warhammer 40,000 (and Games Workshop in general - aside from the occasional great game like Blood Bowl) is that what you actually need to do is gently detach your kid from it and get him involved with something else... because 40K really has no redeeming features. The minis are horribly overpriced. The rules are crap - not written with the intent of making a good wargame, but to keep the games short and to appeal to kids, and to sell as many minis as possible. New editions are introduced periodically simply to make older miniatures and armies outdated. New units - which are measurably better than old ones - are also a frequent thing, forcing people to buy more minis or have a qualitative disadvantage on the battlefield. And let's not even get into the background fiction...

 

Yup, the game is a massive racket indeed. Amazing that the one weapon that your mini needs to be fully fleshed out always comes separately and is limited edition so it costs more than the mini.

 

That said, while most of the fiction is poorly written crap, Dan Abnett does some nice stuff indeed and I routinely pick up his and Sandy Mitchell's new stuff as they are always good reads.

 

Matt

[Jacques]

Unfortunately not from UK to Serbia... Here is a breakdown of costs of the last order at local store:

 

Bojan, we are just thinking different numbers...for the "profit" of the business, I always figure that "store" cost should be 60% of MSRP + 10% S/H AT MOST. All other costs come from how well you run your business...ie, if you do not do very much business, you do not need many workers. If you run a really good store, you need more people, but you also are making more overall "profit".

 

So I would agree with you, 15-25% profit after ALL expenses is actually pretty good.

 

That said, I think that things here in the USA must be a bit different due to the "hostile" nature many of the sellers have toward pieces not being absolutely perfect, or even bought in their own store. My guess is that the US sellers are under some sort of pressure, either by buying too much stock or by having a crappy license.

[Rubberanvil]

If you want modern then look to the Tau who have sleek aerodynamic vehicles. Being a totally new race that has not evolved from the other ones and had a new start. All the others arrived in dribs and drabs but the Tau came on as a complete concept.

The Tau is just a rehash of both Elder groups with much greater emphasis on firepower and almost completely none of the melee aspect.

[Jabberwocky]

As far as I can recall, Games Workshop actually purchased the basic tank model, used for the Leman Rus, Chimera, Basilisk and other designs, from a French modeling company that was doing a line of WW1 tanks. They then took to model and modified it suitably for what they wanted and slotted in a design backstory to explain why they look the way they look.

 

I gave up on WH40K tabletop battles about a decade ago, but as far as the look and feel of the fictional armoured vehicles within the universe, I actually think they have got it just about right. The Imperial Guard are sort of a hybrid of the lowpoints of the British Army from WW1 and the Soviet Army from WW2, with a bit of the SS and SAS/LLRP thrown in for good measure.

 

Having an obsolete looking rhomboid tank (complete with sponsor mounted weapons and that ridiculous little turret housing a whacking great cannon), advancing at walking pace alongside a mass of filthy, tired, muddy, hungry, scared footsoliders, just feels right to me. Particularly if you're advancing against a seething wave of seven foot green skinned orcs, or genetically enhanced power armoured supersoliders, who have been mutated through their worship of the dark gods of Chaos.

[Yish]

The Baneblade is somewhat more sensibly designed:

 

 

Don't ask me how the TC gets in and out of that turret, though.

[Guest bojan]

...Don't ask me how the TC gets in and out of that turret, though.

 

There ale ladders on the both hull and turret side...

Generally Forgeworld does better job on armored vehicles then GW, but are expensive (as highly detailed resin kits tend to be).

[ink]

And let's not even get into the background fiction...

 

Whats wrong with the background fiction? That was always my favourite bit when I was into WH4K about ten years ago.

 

Also, Imperial Guard are ok but they've got nothing on Orks!

[Bearded-Dragon]

The Baneblade is somewhat more sensibly designed:

 

 

Don't ask me how the TC gets in and out of that turret, though.

 

Actually, I'm surprised there is any room in the turret for the commander, considering how large the weapon is and how much it must recoil. I also wonder how the front idler stays on as it appears to have no actual means of attachment to either the hull or the anti-bazooka plates on the side.

[Jabberwocky]

The Tau is just a rehash of both Elder groups with much greater emphasis on firepower and almost completely none of the melee aspect.

 

Nah.

 

The Eldar are just your bog standard High Elves, rewritten for a SF setting.

 

The Tau are a different kettle of fish. Much more Asiatic in origin, and are most heavily influenced by the Japanese, both in their backstory and general appearance.

 

The Tau backstory is of a young, highly motivated, ethnically pure and relatively small race that have developed high level technology in a very small amount of time, and are now flexing their new found muscle and expanding, using a doctrine of "The Greater Good", a sort of militant version of the 'White Man's Burden".

 

This has parallels to post Meiji-era/pre-WW2 (well, pre 1942 anyway) Japanese history, particularly the "East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere" expansionist period, the militant/martial character of Japanese society at the time and, of course, the rapid development of Japanese industry/technology following the arrival of Perry's 'Black Ships'.

 

The look of Tau battlesuits and vehicles are heavily influenced by manga/anime sources, with lots of semi-streamlining, weird comm/weapon flanges, sighting lenses and lots of square angles interrupted by spheres/semi-circles.

 

Tau military strategy is based around the Samurai notion of maneuvering to find the prefect moment/point to strike, displaying no mercy in the execution, but only destroying what is absolutely necessary (The more modern bushido myth of WW2, where the Japanese displayed no respect for their opponents, was more a product of government induced attitudes and social conditioning, as well as the racial conflict aspect of the period, rather than any continuation of traditional notions of Japanese warfare).