Brigade reflagging info

[FALightFighter]

What I bolded is mostly new to me except for the 500 numbers being airborne , while glider inf. was 300 series and the Rangers being 475th an offshoot of Merrill's Marauders lineage being applied in the 60s-70s.

 

During WWI brigades were numbered 1-100 as assigned to inf. div. 1-2 Ist ID , 3-4 2nd ID ( including USMC reg'ts). But the 2 regt's making brigades were done with a helter skelter of what was available such as the 2nd ID being constructed in France from what was available( 9-23rd U.S. inf plus 5-6 USMC reg'ts.)

The NG and nat. div. varied also.

 

Glider Infantry RGTs weren't all 300-series- 88th, 187th, 188th, 193th, 194th, and 401st were all GIRs at least part of the time (188th converted to a PIR in Jul 1945, and one-401st?- was broken up to provide third battalions in 2 other GIRs, IIRC).

[Old Tanker]

Glider Infantry RGTs weren't all 300-series- 88th, 187th, 188th, 193th, 194th, and 401st were all GIRs at least part of the time (188th converted to a PIR in Jul 1945, and one-401st?- was broken up to provide third battalions in 2 other GIRs, IIRC).

 

I believe , for the most part , the difference was mainly based on newly formed GBI or converted from leg.

Some place I have a book that explains it in detail !

[FALightFighter]

2- we don't have enough CAV RGTs for all the Recon Sqdns- we fix this by moving certain IN RGTs from IN BNs to Recon Sqdns, especially in the IBCTs (maybe the designation could be IN RGT (Recon) or IN RGT (Rifle).

 

After some more thought, another idea to flag the recon units is to bring back Tank Destroyer and independant Tank battalion flags (some of them had considerable history with certain infantry divisions).

 

To implement my plan requires:

1- 6 Cav RGTs to flag 6 SCRs (or SCBs)

 

2- 1 Cav RGT (3 ACR)

 

3- 34 IN RGTs to flag 34 infantry battalions in IBCTs

 

4- 36 RGTs to flag 36 CABs in HBCTs

 

5- 35 RGTs to flag 17 IBCT recon sqdns and 18 HBCT recon sqdns.

 

105 regimental flags required, total.

 

When CARS was organized, it had 48 Infantry RGTs (not counting the RGTs already accounted for with the ABN) and 2 have been added to CARS since (24th IN and 25th IN).

 

It also contained 30 AR/CAV RGTs, 7 of which we designated to SCR/ACRs, leaving 23.

 

Using 50 + 23 = 73, leaving 32 regimental flag requirements. There are 3 sources for these regiments, Tank Destroyer BNs from WW2, Tank Battalions from WW2, or bringing back some of the higher numbered national army regiments from WW1 and WW2.

 

The ARNG has already adopted a variation of this system, when they redesignated their eSBs with division flags (27th, 30th, 39th, 45th, 76th, that I know of for sure), and kept a single battalion from historical regiments in the eSBs (which have now become BCTs).

[67th Tigers]

Glider Infantry RGTs weren't all 300-series- 88th, 187th, 188th, 193th, 194th, and 401st were all GIRs at least part of the time (188th converted to a PIR in Jul 1945, and one-401st?- was broken up to provide third battalions in 2 other GIRs, IIRC).

 

Look at the sources:

 

88th: Peacetime formed, regular army (in the 1-100 series for regular rgt)

187th and 188th. 193rd and 194th: Took vacant regt no.s (in WW2 they simply started filling up after the last ARNG Regt rather than leaving a gap)

325th, 326th and 327th: The 1st, 2nd and 3rd Regiments of the old 82nd ID (325-328 Regts, as assigned based on Div No x4 as the last)

401st: The 1st Regiment of the paper 101st ID

 

The 300's are simply due to the numbering of the 82nd's Regts.

[shrike6]

Proposal- we use the elevated echelon plan (that was rejected in 2005). As has already been done in the ARNG, BCTs get division lineages (27th IBCT, 30th HBCT, etc, etc), and RGTs become single battalions (as was done with the FA RGTs during WW2- we can call them battalions, or still call them regiments, it doesn't matter).

Just as a side note. The Elevated Echelon plan kept USARS in place, single battalions did not become regiments.

COA.ppt

[shrike6]

Here's the Priority of Divisions and Brigades for 2004. This should help you come up designations for you brigades.

 

Priority of Divisions and Brigades (Oct 2004)

 

Priority of Divisions and Brigades (Oct 2004)

 

The Order of Merit List is AC/AR divisions only. ARNG divisions are primarily retained on reasons of geography, rather than merit, so they are not included. AC and AR division identities can be transferred between the components, as they are both Federal. ARNG divisions cannot do that.

 

The Army currently uses the following factors to determine the historical priority of divisions and brigades and the point value assigned to each:

a. Age--one point for each year since initial organization. (No points are subtracted for periods of inactive status.)

b. Campaign participation credit--two points for each campaign.

c. US unit decorations--two points for each award.

 

Rank Division Type Points

1 1st Inf. Div. Infantry 152

2 1st Cav. Div. Cavalry 142

3 3d Inf. Div. Infantry 140

4 2d Inf. Div. Infantry 132

5 4th Inf. Div. Infantry 130

6 101st Abn. Div. Airborne 129

7 82nd Abn. Div. Airborne 120

8 7th Inf. Div. Infantry 119

8 9th Inf. Div. Infantry 119

10 24th Inf. Div. Infantry 118

10 25th Inf. Div. Infantry 118

12 5th Inf. Div. Infantry 106

13 90th Inf. Div. Infantry 104

14 77th Inf. Div. Infantry 102

14 79th Inf. Div. Infantry 102

16 83rd Inf. Div Infantry 100

17 89th Inf. Div. Infantry 98

18 8th Inf. Div. Infantry 97

20 6th Inf. Div. Infantry 96

20 76th Inf. Div. Infantry 96

20 81st Inf. Div. Infantry 96

20 84th Inf. Div. Infantry 96

20 88th Inf. Div. Infantry 96

20 92nd Inf. Div. Infantry 96

27 1st Armd. Div. Armored 95

27 23rd Inf. Div. Infantry 95

29 96th Inf. Div. Infantry 93

29 99th Inf Div. Infantry 93

31 86th Inf. Div. Infantry 92

31 94th Inf. Div. Infantry 92

33 103rd Inf. Div. Infantry 90

34 97th Inf. Div. Infantry 89

35 102nd Inf. Div. Infantry 88

36 3d Armd. Div. Armored 84

37 2d Armd. Div. Armored 79

38 4th Armd. Div. Armored 76

39 5th Armd. Div. Armored 74

40 6th Armd. Div. Armored 73

41 7th Armd. Div. Armored 71

42 11th Abn. Div. Infantry 70

43 8th Armd. Div. Armored 69

43 9th Armd. Div. Armored 69

43 10th Armd. Div. Armored 69

43 11th Armd. Div. Armored 69

43 12th Armd. Div. Armored 69

43 14th Armd. Div. Armored 69

49 10th Mtn. Div. Infantry 68

49 17th Abn. Div. Airborne 68

49 70th Inf. Div. Infantry 68

49 106th Inf. Div. Infantry 68

53 13th Armd. Div. Armored 67

53 93rd Inf. Div. Infantry 67

55 2nd Cav. Div. Cavalry 66

55 63rd Inf. Div. Infantry 66

55 69th Inf. Div Infantry 66

55 71st Inf. Div. Infantry 66

59 13th Abn. Div. Airborne 64

59 66th Inf Div. Infantry 64

 

Rank Brigade Type Points

1 173rd Abn. Bde. Airborne 128

2 196th Inf. Bde. Infantry 116

2 199th Inf. Bde. Infantry 116

4 198th Inf. Bde Infantry 114

5 157th Inf. Bde. Infantry 102

6 177th Arm. Bde. Airborne 94

6 197th Inf. Bde. Infantry 94

8 171st Inf. Bde. Infantry 92

8 172nd Inf. Bde. Infantry 92

8 187th Inf. Bde Infantry 92

11 205th Inf. Bde. Infantry 90

12 191st Inf. Bde. Infantry 88

13 193rd Inf. Bde. Infantry 87

14 194th Armd. Bde. Infantry 85

[munster]

I found out that 4 BCT will be transformed into Maneuver Enhancement Brigades and 1 into a battliefield Surveillance Brigade

26th IBCT Massachusetts ARNG will become 26th MEB

58th IBCT Maryland ARNG will become 58th MEB

92nd IBCT Puerto Rico ARNG will become 92nd MEB

218th HBCT South Carolina ARNG will become 218th MEB

149th IBCT Lousiana/Alabama ARNG will become 149th MEB

207th IBCT Alaska ARNG will become 207th BFSB

17 Infantry/RSTA/Combined Arms battalions will become TCF (Tactical Control Force) for the Battlefield Surveillance and Maneuver Enhancement Brigades

from the internet i found out that 2 infantry battalions of the 26th IBCT will become TCF Battalions and a New Infantry Battalion (1-157th Infantry) will

be formed in Colorado

[WRW]

I found out that 4 BCT will be transformed into Maneuver Enhancement Brigades and 1 into a battliefield Surveillance Brigade

26th IBCT Massachusetts ARNG will become 26th MEB

58th IBCT Maryland ARNG will become 58th MEB

92nd IBCT Puerto Rico ARNG will become 92nd MEB

218th HBCT South Carolina ARNG will become 218th MEB

149th IBCT Lousiana/Alabama ARNG will become 149th MEB

207th IBCT Alaska ARNG will become 207th BFSB

17 Infantry/RSTA/Combined Arms battalions will become TCF (Tactical Control Force) for the Battlefield Surveillance and Maneuver Enhancement Brigades

from the internet i found out that 2 infantry battalions of the 26th IBCT will become TCF Battalions and a New Infantry Battalion (1-157th Infantry) will

be formed in Colorado

 

any idea of the time line or designation of sub units

[Guest Legomand]

I found out that 4 BCT will be transformed into Maneuver Enhancement Brigades and 1 into a battliefield Surveillance Brigade

 

I'm curious! What's the difference between MEBs, BFSBs and Heavy BCTs ?

[67th Tigers]

I'm curious! What's the difference between MEBs, BFSBs and Heavy BCTs ?

 

MEB= Engineer Bde

 

BFSB = Recce/ Recon Bde

 

Heavy BCT = Armour-Mech Bde

[BP]

MEB= Engineer Bde

 

Actually, the MEB only has a headquarters unit and signal troops organic to it. It's not an engineer brigade. It commands and controls 5-8 subordinate battalions, combining all of the Army's Maneuver Center's (engineers, chem, MPs) assets, plus civil affairs, duckhunters, etc.

[Guest Legomand]

MEB= Engineer Bde

 

BFSB = Recce/ Recon Bde

 

Heavy BCT = Armour-Mech Bde

 

 

Actually, the MEB only has a headquarters unit and signal troops organic to it. It's not an engineer brigade. It commands and controls 5-8 subordinate battalions, combining all of the Army's Maneuver Center's (engineers, chem, MPs) assets, plus civil affairs, duckhunters, etc.

 

 

So basically the ARNG is losing 5 combat formations and will gain 4 "janitor" formations and a scout bde - Wauw...

[WRW]

So basically the ARNG is losing 5 combat formations and will gain 4 "janitor" formations and a scout bde - Wauw...

 

 

The world will not work without janitors

[Delta tank 6]

To all,

 

I like this discussion, but quite frankly it makes my head hurt! I don't think that we should call battalion size units regiments under any circumstance. The reason is it will cause confusion in the ranks, even though guys in the Army should know which regitments are really battalions it will still be confusing.

 

I want everyone to understand that these BCTs are really very tiny, small BCTs. I will run the numbers and if I am wrong I know someone will correct me!

 

An Infantry Brigade in, for example the 101st Abn, used to look like this:

Bde HQ (HHC)

3 rifle battalions with 3 rifle companies in each battalion for a total of 9 rifle companies

 

Now:

Bde HQ

2 rifle battalions with 3 rifle companies in each battalion for a total of 6 rifle companies

 

The real drastic change IMHO has occurred in the Heavy Brigades.

The 2d BCT of the 3d Infantry division when I was in it 1982-1985 looked like this

Bde HQ

1 Bradlley battalion of 4 Bradley companies and an ITV company, 5 companies

2 M-1 Tank battalions with 4 tank companies in each, total 8 M-1 Tank companies.

Total 13 (or 12 if you don't want to count the ITV company) manuever companies

 

Now:

1 Bradley battalion of 3 Bradley companies

1 Tank battalion of 3 M-1 companies

Total of 6 manuever companies.

 

So we went from 12 or 13 manuver companies to 6 manuever companies! We suffered 50% casualties and we haven't left the motor pool yet!! I understand the advantages of the new structure, but I just wished they would not of gutted the combat power to get where they want to go. I understand that the recon capability and the connectivity and the synergistic effect of this being a permanent organization will make it more effecient, but sometimes you just need a lot of stuff!!

Now when they do mission analysis and decide what force they need to do a particular mission in theater, they may have to send two BCTs instead of one BCT under the old structure. Now who is going to be in charge? Can we plugg a manuever battalion into anothe BCT? Logistics involved with cross attachments? I have other questions, but I do not want to get into many "what ifs"

The way I understand it we have divisions, but not in the same sense as us "old" guys grew up thinking about it. Division's now will be assigned BCTs from different divisions with different capabilities depending on the Commander's Estimate of the Situation. So, divisions are more like the old corps headquarters, where we plugged in the capabilities that they needed to accmplish a mission. I have no real heartburn with this, in fact I think it is a very smart way to go, but we had that capability under the old system. My only concern is that these BCTs lack combat power. Another question is do we really have divisions? Can these new divisions fight as a division? Do they train as a division? Are we organizing the army to fight the current war and maybe setting ourselves up for failure in a future war that does not fit this model? Hell, I don't know, but the triangular concept worked very well for a long, long, time. Oh and I understand we have to win the war we are in! Got it!

 

Ok enough rant!

 

Square divisions from World War I. Interesting way they determined how to number bdes and regts. I am only doing this because there is some one on the net that does not understand how it was done. I had to explain this to my daughter, she is a 1LT in the Marine Corps and her husband is in the 160th Infantry CAARNG, so she asked why 160 and I explained it to her.

 

World War I

Every division followed the bde number system, as far as I know. The 1st and 2d bde were in the 1st Infantry division and the 3d and 4th bdes were in the 2d Infantry Division. So the math model was 1st Division X 2 = 2, so the 1st and 2d bdes would be in the 1st Infantry division. Another example 28th ID, 28x2=56, so the 55th and 56th bde were in the 28th ID and they still are!

 

Regiments: In the regular army divisions 1-25 there was no system which regiment went where as far as I know. But in division 26-?? they used the math model of division number times 4 to get the regiments in the division. 28th ID again as an example (I was in the division for 15 months) 28x4=112. So the regiments in World War I were 112, 111, 110, and 109. When we went to the triangular concept the 111th went away and the other 3 regiments stayed. However in World War II you will find odd regiments in a division, for example the 29th ID had the 116, 115 and the 175??? The explanation for the 175th was explained this way; we were at war and the hell with tradition for tradition's sake and the 175th was ready or at least available and they slammed them into the 29th ID and shipped them to England with the 29th ID.

 

Sorry if this was too long, but I know that someone out there did not understand the numbering system and I thought that I would try to explain it.

 

Mike

Edited April 10, 2008 by Delta tank 6

[FALightFighter]

An Infantry Brigade in, for example the 101st Abn, used to look like this:

Bde HQ (HHC)

3 rifle battalions with 3 rifle companies in each battalion for a total of 9 rifle companies

 

Now:

Bde HQ

2 rifle battalions with 3 rifle companies in each battalion for a total of 6 rifle companies

 

Actually, 3 rifle battalions, with 3 rifle companies and an AT company, for 12 maneuver companies

 

Now, 2 rifle battalions, with 3 rifle companies and weapons company (8)

and cavalry squadron with 3 troops, for 11 maneuver companies total.

 

In light units (10th and 25th), which didn't have AT companies, there is an increase from 9 to 11.

 

The real drastic change IMHO has occurred in the Heavy Brigades.

The 2d BCT of the 3d Infantry division when I was in it 1982-1985 looked like this

Bde HQ

1 Bradlley battalion of 4 Bradley companies and an ITV company, 5 companies

2 M-1 Tank battalions with 4 tank companies in each, total 8 M-1 Tank companies.

Total 13 (or 12 if you don't want to count the ITV company) manuever companies

 

Now:

1 Bradley battalion of 3 Bradley companies

1 Tank battalion of 3 M-1 companies

Total of 6 manuever companies.

 

Actually, the immediate previous organization was 3 battalions of 3 companies, either 3 tank and 6 mech, or 3 mech and 6 tank, plus Brigade Recon Troop, for 10 maneuver companies. We lost ITV companies when Bradley was fielded, and lost D Cos in the mid-90s.

 

And currently, 2 CABs, each with 4 companies (2 mech, 2 tank), for 8, plus Armored Recon Squadron with 3 troops, for 11 maneuver companies.

 

Edited to add:

Overall, there has definitely been a net increase in combat power, just divided differently. In the 33 BDE/10 DIV Army that we had in 2003, there were:

13 Light BDEs (2/2, 1/10, 2/10, 2/25, 3/25, 1/82, 2/82, 3/82, 1/101, 2/101, 3/101, 172, 173) (1 with 6 COs, 5 with 9 COs, 7 with 12 COs)

16 Heavy BDEs (1/1, 2/1, 3/1CD, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1ID, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1AD, 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4) (1 with 12 COs, 15 with 10 COs)

2 Stryker BCTs (1/25, 3/2) (Each with 10 COs)

1 ACR (3ACR) (12 ground troops)

1 LCR (2CR) (9 or 12 ground troops)

or 341 ground maneuver combat companies.

 

The current 43 BCT/10 DIV Army consists of:

18 IBCTs (3/1, 4/1, 2/2, 1/10, 2/10, 3/10, 4/10, 3/25, 4/25, 1/82, 2/82, 3/82, 4/82, 1/101, 2/101, 3/101, 4/101, 173) each with 11 COs

18 HBCTs (1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 4/1CD, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 4/1AD, 2/1ID, 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 4/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4) with 11 COs

6 SBCTs (3/2, 4/2, 5/2, 1/25, 2/25, 2SCR) with 10 COs

1 ACR (3ACR) with 12 ground troops

or 468 ground maneuver combat companies.

 

Over the next 3 years, Grow the Army will add an additional 5 BCTs (48 total), each with 11 COs, for a grand total of 523 ground combat maneuver companies, or 153% (523/341).

 

 

Now when they do mission analysis and decide what force they need to do a particular mission in theater, they may have to send two BCTs instead of one BCT under the old structure. Now who is going to be in charge? Can we plugg a manuever battalion into anothe BCT? Logistics involved with cross attachments? I have other questions, but I do not want to get into many "what ifs"

 

Yes, logistics for cross attachments is easier now. Each combat battalion (IN, AR, CAV, FA) has an FSC with logistics elements- some of which used to be in HHC, some of which used to be in the FSB. A task force attached to another BCT (with its FSC) brings its own log, and can plug into the new BSB fairly easily.

 

The way I understand it we have divisions, but not in the same sense as us "old" guys grew up thinking about it. Division's now will be assigned BCTs from different divisions with different capabilities depending on the Commander's Estimate of the Situation. So, divisions are more like the old corps headquarters, where we plugged in the capabilities that they needed to accmplish a mission. I have no real heartburn with this, in fact I think it is a very smart way to go, but we had that capability under the old system. My only concern is that these BCTs lack combat power. Another question is do we really have divisions? Can these new divisions fight as a division? Do they train as a division? Are we organizing the army to fight the current war and maybe setting ourselves up for failure in a future war that does not fit this model? Hell, I don't know, but the triangular concept worked very well for a long, long, time. Oh and I understand we have to win the war we are in! Got it!

 

Current divisions can fight "as a division" in the same way an old corps could. Yes, they train- more specifically (in my experience) than old divisions. In the 90s, a division conducted a warfighter with its organic BDEs, and then deployed with a mix and match- how many of the divisions in ODS had all their habitual or organic maneuver BDEs? Now, a division preparing for deployment does a Mission Rehearsal Exercise (MRE) WITH THE BCTs THAT WILL FIGHT UNDER IT, IN A SCENARIO THAT MIRRORS WHERE THEY WILL BE EMPLOYED. Instead of "plug and play" corps, with "fixed" divisions, we have "plug and play" corps AND divisions, with "fixed" BCTs. I put "fixed" in quotes because we have always had the ability to task organize BDEs between divisions. An old BDE had to take its slice of the division's CS and CSS assets or it would stress the gaining division's assets.

Edited April 10, 2008 by FALightFighter

[Hellfish6]

Over the next 3 years, Grow the Army will add an additional 5 BCTs (48 total), each with 11 COs, for a grand total of 523 ground combat maneuver companies, or 153% (523/341).

 

We're getting 5 new BCTs? Do we know where they're going?

[BP]

Over the next 3 years, Grow the Army will add an additional 5 BCTs (48 total), each with 11 COs, for a grand total of 523 ground combat maneuver companies, or 153% (523/341).

 

Gawd that's scary. A lot of the fate of the nation is riding on the shoulders of half a thousand young men.

 

Has anybody confirmed the statement that there are more fighter aircraft than infantry squads in both the USA and USMC?

[Delta tank 6]

Actually, 3 rifle battalions, with 3 rifle companies and an AT company, for 12 maneuver companies

 

Now, 2 rifle battalions, with 3 rifle companies and weapons company (8)

and cavalry squadron with 3 troops, for 11 maneuver companies total.

 

In light units (10th and 25th), which didn't have AT companies, there is an increase from 9 to 11.

Actually, the immediate previous organization was 3 battalions of 3 companies, either 3 tank and 6 mech, or 3 mech and 6 tank, plus Brigade Recon Troop, for 10 maneuver companies. We lost ITV companies when Bradley was fielded, and lost D Cos in the mid-90s.

 

And currently, 2 CABs, each with 4 companies (2 mech, 2 tank), for 8, plus Armored Recon Squadron with 3 troops, for 11 maneuver companies.

 

Edited to add:

Overall, there has definitely been a net increase in combat power, just divided differently. In the 33 BDE/10 DIV Army that we had in 2003, there were:

13 Light BDEs (2/2, 1/10, 2/10, 2/25, 3/25, 1/82, 2/82, 3/82, 1/101, 2/101, 3/101, 172, 173) (1 with 6 COs, 5 with 9 COs, 7 with 12 COs)

16 Heavy BDEs (1/1, 2/1, 3/1CD, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1ID, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1AD, 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4) (1 with 12 COs, 15 with 10 COs)

2 Stryker BCTs (1/25, 3/2) (Each with 10 COs)

1 ACR (3ACR) (12 ground troops)

1 LCR (2CR) (9 or 12 ground troops)

or 341 ground maneuver combat companies.

 

The current 43 BCT/10 DIV Army consists of:

18 IBCTs (3/1, 4/1, 2/2, 1/10, 2/10, 3/10, 4/10, 3/25, 4/25, 1/82, 2/82, 3/82, 4/82, 1/101, 2/101, 3/101, 4/101, 173) each with 11 COs

18 HBCTs (1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 4/1CD, 1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 4/1AD, 2/1ID, 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 4/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4) with 11 COs

6 SBCTs (3/2, 4/2, 5/2, 1/25, 2/25, 2SCR) with 10 COs

1 ACR (3ACR) with 12 ground troops

or 468 ground maneuver combat companies.

 

Over the next 3 years, Grow the Army will add an additional 5 BCTs (48 total), each with 11 COs, for a grand total of 523 ground combat maneuver companies, or 153% (523/341).

Yes, logistics for cross attachments is easier now. Each combat battalion (IN, AR, CAV, FA) has an FSC with logistics elements- some of which used to be in HHC, some of which used to be in the FSB. A task force attached to another BCT (with its FSC) brings its own log, and can plug into the new BSB fairly easily.

Current divisions can fight "as a division" in the same way an old corps could. Yes, they train- more specifically (in my experience) than old divisions. In the 90s, a division conducted a warfighter with its organic BDEs, and then deployed with a mix and match- how many of the divisions in ODS had all their habitual or organic maneuver BDEs? Now, a division preparing for deployment does a Mission Rehearsal Exercise (MRE) WITH THE BCTs THAT WILL FIGHT UNDER IT, IN A SCENARIO THAT MIRRORS WHERE THEY WILL BE EMPLOYED. Instead of "plug and play" corps, with "fixed" divisions, we have "plug and play" corps AND divisions, with "fixed" BCTs. I put "fixed" in quotes because we have always had the ability to task organize BDEs between divisions. An old BDE had to take its slice of the division's CS and CSS assets or it would stress the gaining division's assets.

 

 

How big are these Cav Squadrons in the BCT? When I read about them a couple of years ago they were tiny. Thanks for the answers!

 

Mike

[FALightFighter]

How big are these Cav Squadrons in the BCT? When I read about them a couple of years ago they were tiny. Thanks for the answers!

 

Mike

 

Hellfish, as best I can figure, according to media briefing at http://www.army.mil/growthearmy/, they will be Fort Stewart (IBCT), Fort Carson (IBCT), Fort Bliss (2 IBCT) and WSMR (HBCT). The brief lists 6 IBCTs, but 1 at FT Carson already exists (2/2ID will redesignate to 4/4ID, sometime), and 1 at FT Stewart is an HBCT and will convert. The brief shows the endstate, and the exact plan to get there, with all the constant changes, confuses me half the time.

 

Mike, according to Fort Knox Armor-Cavalry Reference Data (Jun 2007), posted at http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/LIC/...FKSM%2071-8.pdf

 

summarized

IBCT Recon Squadron

HHT (usual staff sections)

Fire Support PLT (FIST TEAM for each Troop)

A Troop

HQ- 12 pax, 4 vehicles

MTR SECTION- ,9 pax, 2 x 120mm, 3 vehicles

SCOUT PLT- 6 trucks, 18 pax

SCOUT PLT- same

SCOUT PLT- same

 

B Troop- same as A Troop

 

C Troop (dismounted)

HQ- 10 pax, 3 vehicles

Mortar section- 6 pax, 2 60mm

Sniper Squad- 7 pax (SL and 2 x 3-man teams)

SCOUT PLT- 4 man HQ, 3 x 8-man squads, 1 vehicle

SCOUT PLT- same

[Hellfish6]

White Sands Missile Range is gonna have an HBCT?

 

Holy cow.

[WRW]

slight variation -Ii am running into a blank wall trying to find the component units of 514 wing - is it now an associate wing or has it totally disappeared !

Edited April 12, 2008 by WRW

[FALightFighter]

HBCT Armored Recon Squadron

HHT- normal staff sections and fire support platoon (BFIST w/ crew for each troop)

 

A TROOP

Troop HQ- 13 pax, M3, M577/M1068, M113, 2 x HMMWV, 5T MTV

MTR Section- HMMWV, 2 x MTR Carriers

Scout PLT- 30 pax, 3 M3, 5 HMMWV (PL, PSG in HMMWV, 3 sections with M3 & HMMWV)

Scout PLT- same

Scout PLT- same

 

B TROOP- same

 

C TROOP- same

[Delta tank 6]

HBCT Armored Recon Squadron

HHT- normal staff sections and fire support platoon (BFIST w/ crew for each troop)

 

A TROOP

Troop HQ- 13 pax, M3, M577/M1068, M113, 2 x HMMWV, 5T MTV

MTR Section- HMMWV, 2 x MTR Carriers

Scout PLT- 30 pax, 3 M3, 5 HMMWV (PL, PSG in HMMWV, 3 sections with M3 & HMMWV)

Scout PLT- same

Scout PLT- same

 

B TROOP- same

 

C TROOP- same

FALightFighter,

 

Thanks for the information. IIRC the organization that I read several years ago only had one ground troop and one drone troop? My memory may be faulty but I remember only 9 M3 vehicles in one troop and than a "drone troop?" But, then again keeping up with Cavalry TO&Es over the years is difficult at best since they seem to be always changing them.

 

Thanks again

 

Mike

[FALightFighter]

FALightFighter,

 

Thanks for the information. IIRC the organization that I read several years ago only had one ground troop and one drone troop? My memory may be faulty but I remember only 9 M3 vehicles in one troop and than a "drone troop?" But, then again keeping up with Cavalry TO&Es over the years is difficult at best since they seem to be always changing them.

 

Thanks again

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

Never saw that one. Maybe a line diagram that left off the "x3" next to the line troops.

 

According to this, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...31/c01.htm#1_19, but the RSTA Squadron in the SBCT has HHT, three line troops, and an MI "Surveillance" company. The line troops are mortar section and 3 platoons. The Surveillance Company is a UAV PLT, radar (GSR) platoon and the NBC Recon platoon.

IIRC (can't find a reference right now), the line platoons are 4 Stryker recon vehicles.

[FirstOfFoot]

Has anybody confirmed the statement that there are more fighter aircraft than infantry squads in both the USA and USMC?

 

My apologies for using Wikipedia as a primary source - mea maxima culpa.

 

I had a look at the US Army's entry on wikipedia, and by my count there are roughly 45-odd brigade-sized units on the ORBAT. At best, each brigade has four infantry battalions; each battalion has four rifle companies; each company has three rifle platoons. So, at a guess, the US Army has no more than 2160 rifle platoons (because there are battalions with three companies, and brigades with only two infantry battalions). As for the USMC, well, they've got three MEFs, and by a similar reckoning that makes for 36 battalions, so that's 432 rifle platoons.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_activ...litary_aircraft

The US Air Force has 1,245 F-16 on the books, 700 or so F-15, and 140 A-10. So, it's plausible that there are more fighter aircraft in the USAF than regular army rifle platoons. If you wanted to be awkward, you'd discount the Air National Guard, and compare them with USNG rifle platoons. Meanwhile, the USMC have got 175 AV-8B, and the USN have a fair few F/A-18, so it's plausible that there are more naval aircraft than USMC rifle platoons...

 

So, substitute "platoon" for "squad" and it's plausible. Scary, really.