Brigade reflagging info

[WRW]

There has been a lot of reflagging of brigades in the US army this month

I have sorted out the new 4/1 cavalry but the othet two i have not been able to get details on - am paticularly interested in the 172? Bde now in Europe

[FALightFighter]

There has been a lot of reflagging of brigades in the US army this month

I have sorted out the new 4/1 cavalry but the othet two i have not been able to get details on - am paticularly interested in the 172? Bde now in Europe

2d BDE, 1st INF DIV became 172d IN BDE, with the following subordinates:

- Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 172nd Infantry Brigade (formed

from HHC, 2-1 ID)

- 2nd Battalion, 28th Infantry (formed from 1-26 Infantry)

- 1st Battalion, 2nd Infantry (formed from 1-18 Infantry)

- 3rd Battalion, 66th Armor (formed from 1-77 Armor)

- Troop E, 5th Cavalry (formed from Troop E, 4th Cavalry)

- 1st Battalion, 77th Field Artillery (formed from 1-7 Field Artillery)

- 172nd Support Battalion (formed from 299th Support Battalion)

The 57th Signal Company, 9th Engineer Battalion and 504th Military Intelligence

Company are not affected by this action.

 

In 2010, the 2d BDE, 1st AR DIV will become the 170th IN BDE, with the following subordinates:

- HHC, 170th Infantry Brigade (formed from HHC, 2-1 AD)

- 3rd Battalion, 4th Infantry (formed from 1-6 Infantry)

- 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry (formed from 2-6 Infantry)

- 4th Battalion, 70th Armor (formed from 1-35 Armor)

- Troop D, 5th Cavalry (formed from Troop G, 1st Cavalry)

- 24th Support Battalion (formed from 47th Support Battalion)

- 1st Battalion, 84th Field Artillery (formed from 4th Battalion, 27th Field

Artillery)

The 589th Signal Company, 40th Engineer Battalion and 501st Military

Intelligence

Company are not affected by this action.

 

I don't understand these regimental choices- they have no history with the 172d IN BDE.

[WRW]

It is a scheme by the Pentagon to confuse me

[KingSargent]

"I don't understand these regimental choices- they have no history with the 172d IN BDE."

 

And the 172nd has been in Alaska since forever. What are they going to call our brigade now? I can look out the window and see that Ft. Wainwright hasn't disappeared....

[konev]

What was the 172nd Brigade in Alaska is now (since December 2006) the 1st Brigade, 25th ID.

The 4th Brigade, 25th ID is at Fort Richardson.

 

The rest is a little iffy:

1) 1/25 ID reflagged to 3/2 ID, then to 2 SCR transferred to Germany

2) 4/2 ID formed, then moved to Iraq

3) 3/2 ID new now at Fort Lewis

4) 2/2 ID at Fort Lewis

5) 1/2 in Korea

 

2/25 and 3/25 now in Hawaii

 

konev

[WRW]

What was the 172nd Brigade in Alaska is now (since December 2006) the 1st Brigade, 25th ID.

The 4th Brigade, 25th ID is at Fort Richardson.

 

The rest is a little iffy:

1) 1/25 ID reflagged to 3/2 ID, then to 2 SCR transferred to Germany

2) 4/2 ID formed, then moved to Iraq

3) 3/2 ID new now at Fort Lewis

4) 2/2 ID at Fort Lewis

5) 1/2 in Korea

 

2/25 and 3/25 now in Hawaii

 

konev

 

is there a logic behind all this reflagging -

 

i find it starnage - today i am in 1/12 Infantry tomorrow i am in 2/21 cavalry

[Guest JamesG123]

I don't know how the Army expects to build unit espre de corp when it has this tendency to play musical chairs with its unit designations and names. All of which are pretty much useless and meaningless except to the people who make/sell unit patches and crests...

[KingSargent]

What was the 172nd Brigade in Alaska is now (since December 2006) the 1st Brigade, 25th ID.

The 4th Brigade, 25th ID is at Fort Richardson.

 

The rest is a little iffy:

1) 1/25 ID reflagged to 3/2 ID, then to 2 SCR transferred to Germany

2) 4/2 ID formed, then moved to Iraq

3) 3/2 ID new now at Fort Lewis

4) 2/2 ID at Fort Lewis

5) 1/2 in Korea

 

2/25 and 3/25 now in Hawaii

 

konev

Oh great. If the 25th (Tropic Lightning? In Alaska?) goes anywhere as a division the Alaskans will die of heatstroke or the Hawaiians will freeze, or both.

[Hellfish6]

2d BDE, 1st INF DIV became 172d IN BDE, with the following subordinates:

- Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 172nd Infantry Brigade (formed

from HHC, 2-1 ID)

- 2nd Battalion, 28th Infantry (formed from 1-26 Infantry)

- 1st Battalion, 2nd Infantry (formed from 1-18 Infantry)

- 3rd Battalion, 66th Armor (formed from 1-77 Armor)

- Troop E, 5th Cavalry (formed from Troop E, 4th Cavalry)

- 1st Battalion, 77th Field Artillery (formed from 1-7 Field Artillery)

- 172nd Support Battalion (formed from 299th Support Battalion)

The 57th Signal Company, 9th Engineer Battalion and 504th Military Intelligence

Company are not affected by this action.

 

In 2010, the 2d BDE, 1st AR DIV will become the 170th IN BDE, with the following subordinates:

- HHC, 170th Infantry Brigade (formed from HHC, 2-1 AD)

- 3rd Battalion, 4th Infantry (formed from 1-6 Infantry)

- 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry (formed from 2-6 Infantry)

- 4th Battalion, 70th Armor (formed from 1-35 Armor)

- Troop D, 5th Cavalry (formed from Troop G, 1st Cavalry)

- 24th Support Battalion (formed from 47th Support Battalion)

- 1st Battalion, 84th Field Artillery (formed from 4th Battalion, 27th Field

Artillery)

The 589th Signal Company, 40th Engineer Battalion and 501st Military

Intelligence

Company are not affected by this action.

 

I don't understand these regimental choices- they have no history with the 172d IN BDE.

 

 

So these are gonna be old-style brigades, not HBCTs? 2 Inf, 1 Arm, 1 FA battalion? No cav squadron?

 

Also, where the hell does the 170th Infantry Brigade come from? I've never heard of it before.

[konev]

Hellfish,

 

The two brigades are the old style and will be temporary until they are withdrawn from Germany in the 2012/13 timeframe.

 

The 170/72 will not be in the US. The 2/1AD and 2/1ID designations were removed so those designations can be used for the new Brigades in the US.

 

Hey, I have a motto for the 4/25 ID: Airborne Eskimos (or should it be the Flying Ice Cubes)?

 

With the 4/25 ID and the 173rd in Italy, this will give the US 6 Airborne capable Brigades. When was the last time that happened? Would that be before the 101st went Air Assault?

 

konev

[KingSargent]

Hey, I have a motto for the 4/25 ID: Airborne Eskimos (or should it be the Flying Ice Cubes)?

In Los Anchorage? Farthest Northern Californians. (Little Alaska snob humor here.)

[FALightFighter]

What was the 172nd Brigade in Alaska is now (since December 2006) the 1st Brigade, 25th ID.

The 4th Brigade, 25th ID is at Fort Richardson.

 

The rest is a little iffy:

1) 1/25 ID reflagged to 3/2 ID, then to 2 SCR transferred to Germany

2) 4/2 ID formed, then moved to Iraq

3) 3/2 ID new now at Fort Lewis

4) 2/2 ID at Fort Lewis

5) 1/2 in Korea

 

2/25 and 3/25 now in Hawaii

 

konev

 

This goes back to the initial fielding of the Stryker BCTs.

 

1- SBCT #1 is 3/2ID (FT Lewis)

2- SBCT #2 was 1/25ID (FT Lewis), which reflagged to 2SCR

3- SBCT #3 was 172 IN BDE (Alaska), which reflagged to 1/25ID (after they reflagged to 2SCR)

4- SBCT #4 was 2SCR, which reflagged to 4/2ID (FT Lewis)

5- SBCT #5 is 5/2ID, which will reflag to 2/2ID sometime (when the current 2/2ID (IBCT) reflags to 4/4ID (IBCT))

6- SBCT #6 is 2/25ID, in Hawaii.

7- SBCT #7 is 56/28ID, PARNG.

 

Wiki has my 5-6-7 sequenced as 6-7-5.

 

In the long term, it sort of makes sense. 2 ID will be 1(HBCT), 2/3&4 SBCTs- at only 2 duty stations. 25ID will be 1 (SBCT) and 4(IBCT) in Alaska, 2 (SBCT) and 3 (IBCT) in Hawaii. 2SCR is separate.

 

Based on the "Grow the Army" increase from 43-48 BCTs, there are several BCTs who designations haven't been announced yet. Their composition and my best guess are listed below:

FT Stewart IBCT: 5/3ID?

FT Carson IBCT: 5/4ID?

WSMR HBCT: 194 AR BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 172 IN BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 170 IN BDE?

 

I guess that the first 2 will be 5/3 and 5/4, since they are co-located with those DIV HQs, even though there is no lineage for a 5th BDE in the divisions. They could also use 2 more separate BDEs, or give DIV colors to BDEs (as has been done with multiple national guard divisions). 2 AR BDE, 6 IN BDE and 7 IN BDE, anyone? The unit types are right.

 

That is what I think we should have done in the beginning- given each BCT a "division" designation and patch, and at the same time consolidated regiments back into a single battalion (fixing the cluster that was created when we went from regiments to battlegroups and CARS). Each of the divisions could keep 3 of their historic regiments with them. I know there were lots of issues (which PIR leaves the 82 ABN, etc), but I think there were fewer than the current cluster we have now.

[Hellfish6]

That is what I think we should have done in the beginning- given each BCT a "division" designation and patch, and at the same time consolidated regiments back into a single battalion (fixing the cluster that was created when we went from regiments to battlegroups and CARS). Each of the divisions could keep 3 of their historic regiments with them. I know there were lots of issues (which PIR leaves the 82 ABN, etc), but I think there were fewer than the current cluster we have now.

 

Agree 100%.

 

http://www.ausa.org/pdfdocs/Lowe.pdf

[shrike6]

This goes back to the initial fielding of the Stryker BCTs.

 

1- SBCT #1 is 3/2ID (FT Lewis)

2- SBCT #2 was 1/25ID (FT Lewis), which reflagged to 2SCR

3- SBCT #3 was 172 IN BDE (Alaska), which reflagged to 1/25ID (after they reflagged to 2SCR)

4- SBCT #4 was 2SCR, which reflagged to 4/2ID (FT Lewis)

5- SBCT #5 is 5/2ID, which will reflag to 2/2ID sometime (when the current 2/2ID (IBCT) reflags to 4/4ID (IBCT))

6- SBCT #6 is 2/25ID, in Hawaii.

7- SBCT #7 is 56/28ID, PARNG.

 

Wiki has my 5-6-7 sequenced as 6-7-5

 

Weird, the Army gives this as the order of the Stryker Brigades.

 

1- SBCT #1 is 3/2ID (FT Lewis)

2- SBCT #2 was 1/25ID (FT Lewis), which reflagged to 2SCR

3- SBCT #3 was 172 IN BDE (Alaska), which reflagged to 1/25ID (after they reflagged to 2SCR)

4- SBCT #4 was 2SCR, which reflagged to 4/2ID (FT Lewis)

5- SBCT #5 is 2/25ID, in Hawaii.

6- SBCT #6 is 56/28ID, PARNG.

7- SBCT #7 is 5/2ID, original scheduled temporary designation was to be 3/1ID, will reflag to 2/2ID sometime (when the current 2/2ID (IBCT) reflags to 4/4ID (IBCT))

 

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005tacom/fahey.ppt

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007combatvehicle...on_Schumitz.pdf

dodcas.org/DoDCAS2006presentations/DymeckiStrykerCleared.pdf

http://www.lewis.army.mil/52sbct/History.htm

http://ve.ida.org/rtoc/open/SIP/stryker.html

www.army.mil/2003TransformationRoadmap/Chpt9.pdf

 

Based on the "Grow the Army" increase from 43-48 BCTs, there are several BCTs who designations haven't been announced yet. Their composition and my best guess are listed below:

FT Stewart IBCT: 5/3ID?

FT Carson IBCT: 5/4ID?

WSMR HBCT: 194 AR BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 172 IN BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 170 IN BDE?

I'm betting that at least one of the IBCTs at Bliss will get a 1AD designation at least temporarily to give 1AD a fourth brigade. Although it wouldn't surprise me if all ended up with 1AD designations that would line it up with how the numbering schemes seem to be working with a Fort having all their brigades under one division.

http://www.army.mil/growthearmy/pdf/gta_media_briefing.pdf

 

I guess that the first 2 will be 5/3 and 5/4, since they are co-located with those DIV HQs, even though there is no lineage for a 5th BDE in the divisions. They could also use 2 more separate BDEs, or give DIV colors to BDEs (as has been done with multiple national guard divisions). 2 AR BDE, 6 IN BDE and 7 IN BDE, anyone? The unit types are right.

 

That is what I think we should have done in the beginning- given each BCT a "division" designation and patch, and at the same time consolidated regiments back into a single battalion (fixing the cluster that was created when we went from regiments to battlegroups and CARS). Each of the divisions could keep 3 of their historic regiments with them. I know there were lots of issues (which PIR leaves the 82 ABN, etc), but I think there were fewer than the current cluster we have now.

 

That is one idea and not a bad one although I liked this one a little bit more, where you activate divisional brigades without the division.

Edited March 13, 2008 by shrike6

[FALightFighter]

Shrike,

 

The Army site is correct on the SBCT fieldings. I came up with mine from memory.

 

Hellfish and Shrike,

I see what the authors of your articles are saying- I would take redesignations one step futher, and consolidate battalions back into their regiments, so each battalion-size organization in the army is a "Regiment" of whatever branch, and the battalion lineages consolidate back into the company/battery/troop lineages in a reverse of the process that took place when the CARS was used to designate the battlegroups of the pentomic organization.

[FALightFighter]

Based on the "Grow the Army" increase from 43-48 BCTs, there are several BCTs who designations haven't been announced yet. Their composition and my best guess are listed below:

FT Stewart IBCT: 5/3ID?

FT Carson IBCT: 5/4ID?

WSMR HBCT: 194 AR BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 172 IN BDE?

FT Bliss IBCT: 170 IN BDE?

 

After finding out today that 194 AR BDE is the designation used by training units at FT Knox, I revise my guess to naming the WSMR HBCT 5/1AD. The other option is that 5/1AD is an IBCT at FT Bliss, and 170 IN BDE is the WSMR HBCT- 170 IN BDE was 2/24ID, so it has a mech heritage- but 5/1AD doesn't make sense for an IBCT.

 

Of course, they've changed at least 3 Armor RGTs (13, 32 and 33) into Cavalry RGTs (back to Cavalry, in the case of the 13th), so stranger things have happened.

[Rubberneck]

You can thank the legions of retired GO's - known as greybeards - for scuttling the BCT's having seperate Division patches. There was a COA on the table for the Division HQ to get Corps patches, and for the BCT's to get Division patches. This was too radical for the greybeards...god forbid they accept a 101st or 82nd Airborne BCT...

 

Look for Bliss/WSMR to be a mix of 1ID and 1AD affilaited BCT's. There won't be any additional seperate BCT's except for 3rd ACR, 173rd Airborne and 2CR.

[Rocky Davis]

They retired my Brigade's Colors a year ago (71st BCT) under some kind of 36ID (Texas) reorganization. Then, they retired the colors of a unit I spent 9 years of my career with (1-112AR) and it's now a Cav unit manned by disgruntled tankers with bad knees.

 

God I'm glad I retired before all of this shit came down.

[WRW]

I see that many units are being reformed into Sustainment Bdes - does anyone have details?

[George Newbill]

No details but the intention is more tail less tooth for the guard.

 

On the reflagging, that is so prejuditial to esprit de corps it ain't funny. Pentagon crack-heads!

[WRW]

Why not just keep the Regiment and btn number and just rerole - the 200 Inf Rgt 1 btn would become the 200 Rgt 1 btn and do say logistics

[FALightFighter]

Why not just keep the Regiment and btn number and just rerole - the 200 Inf Rgt 1 btn would become the 200 Rgt 1 btn and do say logistics

 

They've done some of this, mostly with AR to CAV (1-13 AR, 1-32 AR and 1-33 AR are now 1-13 CAV, 1-32 CAV and 1-33 CAV).

 

They've done more (over the years) in the ARNG, again mostly within the combat arms (IN-AR-CAV-FA?) as unit requirements have changed.

 

Proposal- we use the elevated echelon plan (that was rejected in 2005). As has already been done in the ARNG, BCTs get division lineages (27th IBCT, 30th HBCT, etc, etc), and RGTs become single battalions (as was done with the FA RGTs during WW2- we can call them battalions, or still call them regiments, it doesn't matter).

 

Based on the current active endstate of 48 BCTs (1 ACR, 6 Styker, 6 ABN, 17 IBCT, 18 HBCT):

 

1. Flag all the SBCTs as CAV RGTs (like we've done with 2SCR). Strykers embody the US Cavalry tradition up until 1940 or so (longer in some cases) as well as any unit out there. 1st SCR, 2d SCR, 4th SCR, 6th SCR, 7th or 11th SCR, 9th or 14th SCR.

 

2. Leave 3d ACR alone- it is a unique organization, even if they drop the Air Sqdn in the future, and can stay alongside the SCRs.

 

3. 6 ABN DIV/BDE flags (82d, 101st, 173d, 11th, 13th, 17th) with 12 PIR/AIR (501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 511, 325, 187) + 6 CAV RGTs (73, 513, 517, 555, 327, 551)- the last 5 reflagged from IN to CAV, since they are IBCT Recon Sqdns, commanded by IN officers anyway. I think this keeps every unit that has conducted a combat assault landing (either glider or parachute) in the airborne community, but I"m willing to be corrected.

 

4. 17 IBCTs flagged as IN DIV/BDEs (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,23,24,25, four more), with 34 IN RGTs and 17 CAV RGTs.

 

5. 18 HBCTs flagged as AR/CAV DIVs (1CD, 2CD, 1AD, 2AD, 3AD, 4AD, 5AD, 6AD, 7AD, 8AD, 9AD, 10AD, 11AD, 12AD, 13AD, 14AD, 16AD, 20AD) with 36 CABs flagged as AR RGTs (IN RGTs if required) and 18 CAV RGTs.

 

Advantages:

1- we keep more division and regiment flags on active duty.

2- gets rid of the fallacy that we have a regimental system, which we don't.

 

2 major issues I see are:

1- break historical regimenatal ties with divisions (for instance, which regiment won't be part of the 82d ABN BCT). I don't know how to fix this, except do the best we can, based on overall assignments (weighted toward combat time) and the drive on from here.

2- we don't have enough CAV RGTs for all the Recon Sqdns- we fix this by moving certain IN RGTs from IN BNs to Recon Sqdns, especially in the IBCTs (maybe the designation could be IN RGT (Recon) or IN RGT (Rifle).

3- confusion created by having RGTs that are both BN sized (in IBCTs and HBCTs) and BCT sized (in the SCRs). We could fix this by redesignating the CAV RGTs that will be SCRs as SCB (Stryker Cavalry Brigades).

 

So, as an example, the 1st Infantry BCT (the Big Red One) could be composed of the 16th Infantry RGT(Rifle) (an infantry battalion), the 18th Infantry RGT(Rifle) (an infantry battalion), and the 26th Infantry RGT (Reconnaissance) (a reconnaissance squadron). This will keep the 3 RGTs that were in the DIV during WW2 with the BCT, 3 of 4 WW1 RGTs, and 3 of 5 Vietnam RGTs.

[67th Tigers]

4. 17 IBCTs flagged as IN DIV/BDEs (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,23,24,25, four more), with 34 IN RGTs and 17 CAV RGTs.

 

The Divisional numbers were allocated as follows:

 

1-25: Regular Army

26-75: National Guard (enough for each state to have a division)

76+: National Army

 

The 82nd and 101st were old national army units converted to Airborne in WW2 and they retained their numbers (despite pressure to reflag in the 1-25 sequence?)

 

Similarly, regimental numbers were allocated based on division numbers, 1-4 Inf were supposed to be 1 ID, 5-8 2 ID etc. The numbers 1-100 are reserved for regulars, 101-300 for ARNG, 301-500 for National Army (501-600 ended up as newly raised PIR and ISTR 600+ is reserved for SF, raiders etc.)

 

Thanks for the ideas, it was kind of similar to something I was thinking for a sci-fi thing....

[Guest JamesG123]

I've always felt that regiments should have a contiguous identity instead of them being chopped and scattered across a division's BDEs, especially since the brigade is now the highest "packet" strategically for deployments and training cycles.

I guess it was the compromise from transitioning from the old pre-mechanized, Infantry, Artillery, and Cavalry, to the more specialized postmechanized, combined arms world. But I think that the US Army really missed an opportunity to "clean sheet" its organizational structure. Instead of coming up with a buzzword, "Units of Action" which is really just superimposing a bastardized ACR model on the already convoluted organizational structure of a BDE, they could have gone back to basics and "reflagged" all the brigades into "regimental combat teams" either with the same BDE numbers or with historical regimental ones (preferable). These individual, and self contained regiments would be structured similar to ACRs with combined arms teams organic to each company, even platoons, with each "type" of Regiment having differing mixes. (ie: Armored regiments having a tank heavy structure, Infantry (M) Regiments more a higher proportion of infantry, etc...). "Brigades" would become an actual task organization of regiments or even sub-Battalions for a specific mission, all under a division flag.

 

Yeah, I know, completely never going to happen for a whole host of Army institutional political reasons. meh...

[Old Tanker]

The Divisional numbers were allocated as follows:

 

1-25: Regular Army

26-75: National Guard (enough for each state to have a division)

76+: National Army

 

The 82nd and 101st were old national army units converted to Airborne in WW2 and they retained their numbers (despite pressure to reflag in the 1-25 sequence?)

 

Similarly, regimental numbers were allocated based on division numbers, 1-4 Inf were supposed to be 1 ID, 5-8 2 ID etc. The numbers 1-100 are reserved for regulars, 101-300 for ARNG, 301-500 for National Army (501-600 ended up as newly raised PIR and ISTR 600+ is reserved for SF, raiders etc.)

 

Thanks for the ideas, it was kind of similar to something I was thinking for a sci-fi thing....

 

 

What I bolded is mostly new to me except for the 500 numbers being airborne , while glider inf. was 300 series and the Rangers being 475th an offshoot of Merrill's Marauders lineage being applied in the 60s-70s.

 

During WWI brigades were numbered 1-100 as assigned to inf. div. 1-2 Ist ID , 3-4 2nd ID ( including USMC reg'ts). But the 2 regt's making brigades were done with a helter skelter of what was available such as the 2nd ID being constructed in France from what was available( 9-23rd U.S. inf plus 5-6 USMC reg'ts.)

The NG and nat. div. varied also.

 

The above was called ' 4 square ' . Then starting about 1940 the ' Triangle div' was formed and brigades disappeared , but as JamesG123 mentions the reg't system was created with the RCT concept.

Next came the stillborn PENTOMIC Div. which had battlegroups and nearly killed off any reg't system which was then replaced , about 1963 , with the current brigade setup . But not in sequence number but by numbering 1-2-3 for each div made up of pieces of the remnants of the old reg't system.

 

So it may seem that alot of drugs or alchohol or hangovers were present when redoing unit structures was a happening.