Competent amateur generals

[DesertFox]

Speaking about Benedict Arnold, has anyone read "Finishing Becca"?

[TheSilentType]

Yigal Yadin. I'm not sure if he'd qualify as a complete "amateur" since he joined the Haganah as a teenager, but he certainly never had any formal military training.

[Guest bojan]

Assume that somehow an amateur somehow got command today, is the military situation so complex that the idea of an amateur being able to be capable in command impossible?

 

Ahmad Shah Massoud

[Cromwell]

Here are a few that come to mind:

 

 

Mao Zedong (Mao Tse Tung) Reading "On Revolution and War" is still very enlightening.

 

Võ Nguyên Giáp defeated Japan, France, United States, China - Not bad Only came a cropper when he invaded Cambodia. Vietnamese imperial hubris?

Was once asked what was the secret of his success. His answer was the he was allowed to fail many times and learn from these mistakes.

 

Ahmed Ben Bella who gave the world such jewels as: "The purity of violence", and advocated the rape of French women as it was clensing.

 

Seyyed Ali Khamene'i- who proved to be a kind of Leon Trotsky (well named above) for Revolutionary Iran and now runs the show as President.

 

Yigael Yadin - Archeologist, who in 1948, became the first EFFECTIVE commander of a Jewish army in 2,000 years -and won.

[KingSargent]

Here are a few that come to mind:

Mao Zedong (Mao Tse Tung) Reading "On Revolution and War" is still very enlightening.

Mao was successful against other Chinese. In Western terms Chinese armies were laughingstocks.

 

Võ Nguyên Giáp defeated Japan, France, United States, China - Not bad Only came a cropper when he invaded Cambodia. Vietnamese imperial hubris?

Was once asked what was the secret of his success. His answer was the he was allowed to fail many times and learn from these mistakes.

He had just a tiny bit of help with Japan, he took on France when they were not recovered from WW2, and the US and China were never really serious about squashing him.

He was definitley good, though.

 

Ahmed Ben Bella who gave the world such jewels as: "The purity of violence", and advocated the rape of French women as it was clensing.

He thought they were virgins and could cure his VD?

He also had a bit of help from le Grande Charles....

 

Seyyed Ali Khamene'i- who proved to be a kind of Leon Trotsky (well named above) for Revolutionary Iran and now runs the show as President.

Whom did he beat (besides burka-less women)?

 

Yigael Yadin - Archeologist, who in 1948, became the first EFFECTIVE commander of a Jewish army in 2,000 years -and won.

He had a lot of study and practice in the Haganah and the Arabs hardly counted as first-stringers in any military league.

[BillB]

Here are a few that come to mind:

Mao Zedong (Mao Tse Tung) Reading "On Revolution and War" is still very enlightening.

Mao was successful against other Chinese. In Western terms Chinese armies were laughingstocks.

 

Võ Nguyên Giáp defeated Japan, France, United States, China - Not bad Only came a cropper when he invaded Cambodia. Vietnamese imperial hubris?

Was once asked what was the secret of his success. His answer was the he was allowed to fail many times and learn from these mistakes.

He had just a tiny bit of help with Japan, he took on France when they were not recovered from WW2, and the US and China were never really serious about squashing him.

He was definitley good, though.

 

Ahmed Ben Bella who gave the world such jewels as: "The purity of violence", and advocated the rape of French women as it was clensing.

He thought they were virgins and could cure his VD?

He also had a bit of help from le Grande Charles....

 

Seyyed Ali Khamene'i- who proved to be a kind of Leon Trotsky (well named above) for Revolutionary Iran and now runs the show as President.

Whom did he beat (besides burka-less women)?

 

Yigael Yadin - Archeologist, who in 1948, became the first EFFECTIVE commander of a Jewish army in 2,000 years -and won.

He had a lot of study and practice in the Haganah and the Arabs hardly counted as first-stringers in any military league.

So King, where does my earlier but apparently overlooked sponsorship of Trotsky fit into the above analysis?

 

BillB

[TheSilentType]

Yigael Yadin - Archeologist, who in 1948, became the first EFFECTIVE commander of a Jewish army in 2,000 years -and won.

He had a lot of study and practice in the Haganah and the Arabs hardly counted as first-stringers in any military league.

 

Yadin also deserves a lot of credit for creating the IDF after the War of Independence ended. Not bad for a guy with no formal military education.

Edited March 17, 2008 by TheSilentType

[Cromwell]

Here are a few that come to mind:

Mao Zedong (Mao Tse Tung) Reading "On Revolution and War" is still very enlightening.

Mao was successful against other Chinese. In Western terms Chinese armies were laughingstocks.

 

 

Does the Chosin Reservoir ring a bell? (Ask not?..... It tolls for thee)

[harryRIEDL]

Was there any other historic generals who switched sides in the middle of war?

general Dostem change sides a couple of times in Afghanistan's for the soviets then against for the taliban then against

[BP]

In a nod to St. Patrick's Day and Michael Eastes, what about Patrick Cleburne? Do two years British service on prior home turf count as prior military experience?

 

In the ACW he went from militia private to Brigadier General in just about a year, and had a very solid record until killed in 1864.

[KingSargent]

So King, where does my earlier but apparently overlooked sponsorship of Trotsky fit into the above analysis?

 

BillB

Well, since I was talking to Cromwell and not you, nowhere.

 

Now that I AM talking to you, I must confess not having enough info on Trotsky in field command to make a judgement.

[KingSargent]

Here are a few that come to mind:

Mao Zedong (Mao Tse Tung) Reading "On Revolution and War" is still very enlightening.

Mao was successful against other Chinese. In Western terms Chinese armies were laughingstocks.

Does the Chosin Reservoir ring a bell? (Ask not?..... It tolls for thee)

I assume you mean the whole Chinese offensive across the Yalu rather than JUST the Chosin Reservoir, since the USMC got out the Chosin trap.

 

I stand by my statement. Even laughingstocks can have a good day when surprising overstretched people commanded by arrogant assholes.

[Jim Martin]

I assume you mean the whole Chinese offensive across the Yalu rather than JUST the Chosin Reservoir, since the USMC got out the Chosin trap.

 

I stand by my statement. Even laughingstocks can have a good day when surprising overstretched people commanded by arrogant assholes.

 

 

Almond should have been cashiered in Italy.

 

Instead they gave him a Corps in Korea.

[lastdingo]

general Dostem change sides a couple of times in Afghanistan's for the soviets then against for the taliban then against

 

One general of ancient Greece switched sides twice in the Peloponnesian war.

 

Mercenary leaders of 17th century (30 years war) switched sides ... well, nobody bothered anymore to register how often.

 

Italian Generals switched sides in 1943 afaik.

 

French Generals switched sides in WW2 somehow. Vichy did fight the Allied landing in North Africa, after all.

 

And didn't countries like Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria switch sides in WW2 when the Red Army knocked on their door?

 

Russian Generals of the 7 years war switched sides as their new Tsar (Peter something, removed by his wife Katherine) did so.

 

Prussian and other German generals switched as German states (French puppets) turned against Napoleon.

 

----------------

 

About Chinese troops quality:

I bet the Western troops would have failed to show such a performance as the Chinese did in Korea. We need to remember that they had few weapons heavier than a mortar and abysmal support and logistics. They were permanently in a situation that resembled being in an air-supplied pocket.

Edited March 18, 2008 by lastdingo

[Brian Kennedy]

Vo Nguyen Giap, definitely.

[pikachu]

I assume you mean the whole Chinese offensive across the Yalu rather than JUST the Chosin Reservoir, since the USMC got out the Chosin trap.

 

I stand by my statement. Even laughingstocks can have a good day when surprising overstretched people commanded by arrogant assholes.

 

Actually, Mao also technically fought the Japanese in the north, although back then he was more of a Khruschev figure than any real military commander. Mao's guerrilla tactics were primarily used against foreigners. He didn't launch a guerrilla war against Chiang, as is widely believed. Chiang forced the Red Army into becoming an insurgent force, but after the long march the tactics the Red Army used against Nationalists were for the most part regular military tactics. After Chiang's northern generals defected, the Red Army turned into a fully regular army, abandoning all pretense of using asymmetric warfare against Chiang's remaining loyalists. The historical emphasis on PLA's use of asymmetric warfare is actually postwar propaganda concocted by Mao to take credit for his generals' successes. Mao envisioned himself as a great anti-colonialist guerrilla leader in the popular/romantic mold of his day, but in actual fact it was the regular PLA's competence (combined with the Nationalists' incompetence) that won the day.

 

This is much similar to how in the US the exploits of the irregular militiamen during the Independence War are more celebrated than those of the regular army, which actually won the war.

 

In any case, I find your persistent belief that Chinese armies have always been weak rather strange. The Mongols needed a week to destroy the combined armies of Poland and Hungary, a month to take Samarkand, two to crush Russia, less than a year to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, ten years to conquer the XiXia, twenty-seven years to conquer the Jin Jurchen dynasty, and a staggering thirty eight years to conquer the southern Song, which was the weakest of all Chinese dynasties. For that matter, Han Wudi's victory over the Xiongnu (Hun) empire was what gave the Romans Attila.

[KingSargent]

In any case, I find your persistent belief that Chinese armies have always been weak rather strange. The Mongols needed a week to destroy the combined armies of Poland and Hungary, a month to take Samarkand, two to crush Russia, less than a year to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, ten years to conquer the XiXia, twenty-seven years to conquer the Jin Jurchen dynasty, and a staggering thirty eight years to conquer the southern Song, which was the weakest of all Chinese dynasties. For that matter, Han Wudi's victory over the Xiongnu (Hun) empire was what gave the Romans Attila.

I said a laughingstock compared to Western armies.

The Mongols were not Western (they were better ATT). AFAIK, the Mongols were never beaten by a Chinese army until after the time of Kublai, if then. Of course they were writing the history ATT, so who knows?

Taking a long time to conquer an area indicates indifference on the part of the Mongols, not incapacity.

[shep854]

... the Chosin Reservoir, since the USMC got out the Chosin trap.

 

Not to mention the 10 Chinese divisions destroyed by 1MARDIV in the process.*

 

*With a little help from our friends.

Edited March 19, 2008 by shep854

[pikachu]

Taking a long time to conquer an area indicates indifference on the part of the Mongols, not incapacity.

 

That's actually bullshit. From the time of Genghis Khan onwards, Mongol efforts were actually concentrated in China. Central Asia and Europe were the side trophies. Genghis himself would never have invaded Khwarazm had Sultan Muhammad had a better head on his shoulders. Genghis took five toumans to crush Muhammad, but left behind ten for his general Muqali to continue his efforts against the Jin. Jebe and Subedei steamrolled over Russia with two toumans while Genghis was mobilizing the rest of his army (17 toumans) against the Chinese. Batu got himself five toumans to conquer Europe while Ogodei was mobilizing twenty against the Song. Mongke sent his brother Hulegu west with the largest Mongol army to march west (300,000 counting families) but organized the biggest Mongol army (half a million without counting families) for his own use in China. He died from plague while besieging a minor Chinese city. In fact, most Mongol Kaghans concentrated two thirds of their forces in China while leaving their "poorer cousins" farther west barely enough to conquer whatever it was they wanted to conquer. All Mongol Kaghans governed from Karakorum on the Chinese border. The Mongol empire even from Ogodei's time was obsessed with conquering China while effectively neglecting the west. It was actually imperial indifference that saved Europe, as neither Ogodei nor Guyuk nor Mongke thought it worthwhile to support their cousin Batu in his western endeavors (which was exacerbated by the Golden Horde's questionable ancestry) because they were too busy trying to conquer China. In fact, the whole point of Mongke's sending Hulegu west was to balance the Golden Horde's growing power. Khubilai made sure that Hulegu's house declared themselves ilKhans (subservient/tributary Khans) to his own, so in theory the Mongol empire proper was governed from China (which housed the largest Mongol army at the time) from Khubilai's time onwards. It was an arrangement that did not survive for long, but China was still the center of Mongol ambitions for a very long time after. Even Tamerlane felt the need to prove himself by marching against the Ming (he died en route). The last Mongol Kaghan died fighting the Qing dynasty of China (by which time the Mongols had anyway been sidelined as a major power). After this the Qing absorbed the surviving Mongol military tribes as Manchu bannermen, effectively erasing their identity. Basically, most Mongol rulers viewed China as the ultimate prize, but only one actually managed to make it his.

 

Then again, any Mongol army was automatically outnumbered when operating in China, so the disparity in size between imperial eastern and western armies (often 3:1) could be partially explained away by the simple requirement to deploy more people in China. This does bring out the question of how the Chinese had managed to grow so prodigiously in population size when their western contemporaries had failed to.

[KingSargent]

Pikachu, fascinating review of Mongol history.

 

However, you neglected my point, which was a Mongol army ever defeated in the field by the Chinese?

 

China is a huge area, very populous as you noted, and large portions were not topographically suited to Mongol methods and tactics. And how many of the toumans in China were more or less garrisons?

 

As for your question on population, I suspect that the dislocations in Europe caused by the demise of the Roman Empires had a lot to do with reduced birthrate, and whenever the Europeans started to get ahead some plague or another would devastate them. China and India also suffered from plagues, but they had more area and more population to absorb the losses - not that the rulers cared of course, except when they got sick.