Competent amateur generals

[Old Tanker]

Yes, the 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry.

 

but then he was an Anglo-Huguenot of the kind that dominated

 

 

That didn't do shyte for me , I stilled pulled KP and Gawd duty.

[John Dudek]

Ah yesss.... The Ould Wound.... (shot through both hips, BTW)

 

The fact that he was 85 had nothing to do with his death, I suppose. :rolleyes:

 

In his academic career, the only subject he never taught at Bowdoin was Mathematics. Good writer, too.

 

No. The official quote that I read from a primary source, was that Chamberlain died of the same wound that he received at Petersburg. Reading between the lines, that meant that not only did Chamberlain probably have to wear an adult diaper for all of his remaining years, but he probably died of a burst aneurysm in his old age.

Edited March 3, 2008 by John Dudek

[Simon Tan]

Publius Cornelius Scipio a.k.a. Africanus. He was as not a career soldier and had no major command prior to picking up the baton when his father and uncle were killed in Spain. He was not without some military experience, having been involved in two of Hannibal's lessons to the Romans, latterly as a tribune at Cannae where he was amongst the small lot that made good their escape.

 

He drove the Carthaginians from Spain, crushed the Celtiberrian rebellions and then returned to Rome only to be given permission and not much else to pursue his campaign in Africa. He would build an army of volunteers and disgraced legions, matched with Numidian horse from a captive he had freed in Spain. With this small band, he would go to Africa, defeat the Carthaginians under Hasdrubal and their Numidian ally Syphax, not once but repeatedly. Finally, in the face of Carthaginian perfidy, he would face down and crush Hannibal with a force of smaller size and without the 80 elephants that Hannibal brought to the fight.

 

Yet in popular history, he would be less well known than his nemesis. Between Hannibal at portas and Carthago delenda est was this remarkable man. A very young man to boot, 24 when he took command of Roman forces in Spain.

[Gabe]

General Tso (of the chicken dish fame). A retired writer who crushed the Taiping Rebellion.

[Argus]

Monash, Chauvel... do part timers count?

 

shane

[Jim Martin]

I recall reading somewhere or other that Arnold may also have been motivated by a concern over the recent French committment of troops; there was considerable antipathy between the New England Protestants and the Catholic Church, and many worried that French intervention meant that we were merely going to get a new king, and a Catholic one at that.

 

Ironic, given that the victory he won at Saratoga was the impetus for French intervention.

 

And yes--Saratoga was Arnold's victory, even though that incompetent prick Gates had placed him under arrest in his tent for the battle, and claimed the credit for the victory when Arnold told Gates to go stuff himself and rode off to the front to rescue the impending disaster.

[BillB]

Can anyone nominate politically appointed officer with little or no military background, but in the end proved to be good military officer?

My nominee is John A. Logan, "Black Jack" Logan, Copperhead who fought for the Union Army in the west.

Narses, Armenian eunuch who served for Justinian, succeeded after Belisarius' dismissal and continued Justinian's campaign with great success.

Leon Trotsky.

 

BillB

[Rubberneck]

Scipio Africanus by far. Do yerself a favor and read a few books. He was a theater commander and had to raise and supply his own forces much less fight across the Med...good call Simon.

[DKTanker]

I recall reading somewhere or other that Arnold may also have been motivated by a concern over the recent French committment of troops; there was considerable antipathy between the New England Protestants and the Catholic Church, and many worried that French intervention meant that we were merely going to get a new king, and a Catholic one at that.

There is also the minor issue of his 18 year old loyalist bride who just happened to be the former mistress of John Andre. Good chance that Mr Arnold was, shall we say, whipped.

[briantk]

Monash, Chauvel... do part timers count?

 

shane

 

Yes.

[capt_starlight]

Monash, Chauvel... do part timers count?

 

shane

 

And then you would have to include just about any Australian General from the two "big ones". Apart from Bridges in WWI (and it appears it may be thankful that he was "bumped" when he was) and Lavarack (at least he saved 1 AUST Corps from Java) and Tom Blamey (but he had left the Permanent Army between the wars) in WWII, they were just about all amateurs (even if they graduated from RMC).

[pikachu]

General Tso (of the chicken dish fame). A retired writer who crushed the Taiping Rebellion.

 

Well, I certainly didn't know that.

 

Actually, the Chinese lead the pack in turning totally inexperienced scholars into generals overnight. If we believe the legends, the great master Sun's military career before being elevated to supreme general of Wu consisted of visiting ancient battlefields and writing a draft of his Art of War. His descendant Sun Bin was a cripple who had never lead men in his life before getting elevated to general (he also wrote the second Art of War). Zhuge Liang, the most famous strategist in Chinese history, was a 20-something effete scholar when he was given total command of his master's armies (and by extension, some of China's most experienced generals at the time). Perhaps the craziest political appointment of all time was Tian Dan's elevation to supreme general of Qi: He was voted into office because he'd had the soundness of mind to attach hubcaps to his family's wagon wheels during an evacuation.

 

This seemed brilliant at the time because during the same evacuation everyone else had lost their wagons. Apparently Chinese wagons had axles that protrude far beyond the wheels. When two wagons got too close together, the axles would get between wheel spokes and immobilize both wagons (or break each other's spokes). Hubcaps prevented this.

[Redbeard]

What about General Motors or General Electric?

 

OK, OK - I will go to bed now...

 

Regards

 

Steffen Redbeard

[sunday]

Well, I certainly didn't know that.

 

Actually, the Chinese lead the pack in turning totally inexperienced scholars into generals overnight. If we believe the legends, the great master Sun's military career before being elevated to supreme general of Wu consisted of visiting ancient battlefields and writing a draft of his Art of War. His descendant Sun Bin was a cripple who had never lead men in his life before getting elevated to general (he also wrote the second Art of War). Zhuge Liang, the most famous strategist in Chinese history, was a 20-something effete scholar when he was given total command of his master's armies (and by extension, some of China's most experienced generals at the time). Perhaps the craziest political appointment of all time was Tian Dan's elevation to supreme general of Qi: He was voted into office because he'd had the soundness of mind to attach hubcaps to his family's wagon wheels during an evacuation.

 

This seemed brilliant at the time because during the same evacuation everyone else had lost their wagons. Apparently Chinese wagons had axles that protrude far beyond the wheels. When two wagons got too close together, the axles would get between wheel spokes and immobilize both wagons (or break each other's spokes). Hubcaps prevented this.

 

Could these be considered as examples of picking intelligent-lazy people?

[KingSargent]

You have to remember that these successful generals were fighting OTHER CHINESE.

 

Chinese war culture is historically weird in Western eyes, and just about anybody coming in from outside the Chinese culture could clean China's clocks. Then the Chinese would absorb the conquerors until they were Chinese and the cycle would begin again.

[Hans Engstrom]

There is also the minor issue of his 18 year old loyalist bride who just happened to be the former mistress of John Andre. Good chance that Mr Arnold was, shall we say, whipped.

 

Worth noting again, http://www.webcomicsnation.com/ericburns/s...gle&ID=8976

[DesertFox]

Was there any other historic generals who switched sides in the middle of war?

[Simon Tan]

King Syphax of the Numidians (Maessylia IIRC) had pledged to support Scipio in a bizzare turn when both Romans and Carthaginians arrived at his court in Sirta(Sirte) at the same time. It was all undone when Hasdrubal sent his daughter, Sophonisba to the randy bugger to be his wife. He promptly threw in his lot with Carthage and wound up losing his crown, his wife (to his arch-nemesis Massilisa) and his kingdom.

 

Along the way, he had 2 armies destroyed in turn and his heir and son was also whupped by Scipio's lieutenant, Laelius in the aftermath of Zama.

[Marek Tucan]

Was there any other historic generals who switched sides in the middle of war?

Not directly in the middle of the war, but Marshal Bernadotte after becoming the King of Sweden

[KingSargent]

Was there any other historic generals who switched sides in the middle of war?

Soviet General Vlasov went to work for Hitler in WW2.

[Wobbly Head]

Was there any other historic generals who switched sides in the middle of war?

 

Robert the Bruce of Scotland did although he wasn't a English general.

[DesertFox]

Assume that somehow an amateur somehow got command today, is the military situation so complex that the idea of an amateur being able to be capable in command impossible?

[Wobbly Head]

Assume that somehow an amateur somehow got command today, is the military situation so complex that the idea of an amateur being able to be capable in command impossible?

 

Depends on the possition there are so many generals in percurement it would be easy to hide someone a total amateur in amongst them as long as they do the same as most of them ie as little as possible until they retire. They are also some positions where political savy and diplomacy is more important than military knowelage. Dwight D Eisenhower got to be Supreme Allied Commander in Europe yet he never seen combat, but he was one of the few who knew how to deal with the egos of the other generals not a small task considering the characters involved.

[DesertFox]

Depends on the possition there are so many generals in percurement it would be easy to hide someone a total amateur in amongst them as long as they do the same as most of them ie as little as possible until they retire. They are also some positions where political savy and diplomacy is more important than military knowelage. Dwight D Eisenhower got to be Supreme Allied Commander in Europe yet he never seen combat, but he was one of the few who knew how to deal with the egos of the other generals not a small task considering the characters involved.

 

What I mean is to actually command troops in the field.......

[KingSargent]

Depends on the possition there are so many generals in percurement it would be easy to hide someone a total amateur in amongst them as long as they do the same as most of them ie as little as possible until they retire. They are also some positions where political savy and diplomacy is more important than military knowelage. Dwight D Eisenhower got to be Supreme Allied Commander in Europe yet he never seen combat, but he was one of the few who knew how to deal with the egos of the other generals not a small task considering the characters involved.

He was also an excellent planner, working in and then running War Plans Division. That slot is where he got the rank boost.

 

The Army War College ran research scenarios on Coalition Warfare. Eisenhower was one of the best performers, and it was noticed. That training and experience is how he got shoved into jobs doing the tricky bits of Coalition Warfare. It definitely wasn't his favorite activity, but he could do it well so he was stuck.

 

Interesting that the mantra of the Coalition Warfare teaching staff was, "Never trust the British or the French. They will screw you in a heartbeat." The generation of officers that wore stars in WW2 had that drummed into them.