El Alamein resort planned

[pikachu]

But that's Greece! The Aegean islands are packed with (both official & unofficial) nudist beaches, let alone topless, & the clientele are by no means all north European tourists. Last time I was working in Athens, I escaped from the summer heat & smog at the weekend by hopping on a ferry to one of the Saronic islands & found it crammed full of Athenians with hardly a foreigner or swimsuit in sight.

 

I have to share KingSargent's surprise at the news. I've always looked on Rhodes as one of those "holy of holy" places of Orthodox Christianity, studded with relics of monasteries and saints...

 

Heck, the only tour packages I've ever seen that mention Rhodes are pilgrimage-oriented. If I'd known about the nudist beaches I'd have tagged along with my parents last summer.

[swerve]

I have to share KingSargent's surprise at the news. I've always looked on Rhodes as one of those "holy of holy" places of Orthodox Christianity, studded with relics of monasteries and saints...

 

Heck, the only tour packages I've ever seen that mention Rhodes are pilgrimage-oriented. If I'd known about the nudist beaches I'd have tagged along with my parents last summer.

 

 

One word - Faliraki

[DougRichards]

When I was there it qualified as pretty hippiesh, & in warmer weather I wouldn't have been surprised to see bare breasts, but it was bloody freezing. January. I'd been swimming & sunbathing off Sharm el Sheikh & Hurghada, but the weather turned chilly by the time I got to Dahab.

 

A friend of mine works as a journo at a UAE on-line newspaper, which gives me cause to look in on it sometimes.

 

An article about some topless sunbathing caught my eye (my friend didn't write it though) - some European visitors were given a good talking to by the local authorities for exposing their breasts. Quite understandable really, in some western countries they could have been arrested. If they had repeatedly offended they would have been taken into custody.

 

The UAE is very liberal - alcohol being reasonably available, except in one state/province or whatever, where it was only available at the local Rugby club (God having created beer so that Rugby props won't take over the world...), but there are limits, and those limits have to be respected.

 

On Saturday mornings the Australian multi-cultural TV station - SBS - Special Broadcasting Service - or Sex Between Soccer - has the United Arab Emirate government's TV news service on for an hour or so, in Arabic: The funny thing is seeing a male newsreader in pseudo-traditional Bedouin robes, including the headgear, with designer stubble sitting next to a buxom, fairly attractive, female newsreader wearing 1970s European fashion showing a fair amount of decolletage.

[Ken Estes]

....

 

The UAE is very liberal - alcohol being reasonably available, except in one state/province or whatever, where it was only available at the local Rugby club (God having created beer so that Rugby props won't take over the world...), but there are limits, and those limits have to be respected.

 

....

Not interesting in quibbling, but one must say 'liberal' only in comparison to some [not all] of the other Gulf security regimes. It is still run for the benefit exclusively for the 18% 'national' population and especially their ruling elites. The stories are legion, for instance how one westerner working there flipped the bird at a Mercedes that ran her off the road, was dismissed and on plane home in 24 hrs, having offended one of the hierarchy. The UAE has fine press, carefully managed, but was chagrined to find itself listed in 2002 as one of 19 level III [= worst] violators of Human Trafficking in both UN and State Dept lists that stated that the UAE is a ‘country of destination for trafficked persons’ and criticizes the lack of legislation criminalizing the practice.

 

The one 'dry' emirate of the seven, Sharjah, still uses Shar'ia law, so one does not shack up there with one's honey, unless she is also the wife....

 

Best bet in the region for western ways would be Qatar, formerly was Bahrain.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Ken Estes

[DougRichards]

Not interesting in quibbling, but one must say 'liberal' only in comparison to some [not all] of the other Gulf security regimes. It is still run for the benefit exclusively for the 18% 'national' population and especially their ruling elites. The stories are legion, for instance how one westerner working there flipped the bird at a Mercedes that ran her off the road, was dismissed and on plane home in 24 hrs, having offended one of the hierarchy. The UAE has fine press, carefully managed, but was chagrined to find itself listed in 2002 as one of 19 level III [= worst] violators of Human Trafficking in both UN and State Dept lists that stated that the UAE is a ‘country of destination for trafficked persons’ and criticizes the lack of legislation criminalizing the practice.

 

The one 'dry' emirate of the seven, Sharjah, still uses Shar'ia law, so one does not shack up there with one's honey, unless she is also the wife....

 

Best bet in the region for western ways would be Qatar, formerly was Bahrain.

Points taken.

[swerve]

Not interesting in quibbling, but one must say 'liberal' only in comparison to some [not all] of the other Gulf security regimes. ...

 

e.g. -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

 

Four years jail for having 0.003 grams of cannabis on the sole of your shoe.

[Murph]

That was might first thought the unexploded ordnance. Then I remembered Islamic fanatics blowing themselves up whereever infidels are around. The Muslim world is not a safe place to be as a tourist, too many looking for their 72 virgins.

 

Does anybody think that all the mines were cleared from the Western Desert?

[DougRichards]

e.g. -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

 

Four years jail for having 0.003 grams of cannabis on the sole of your shoe.

 

And having ANY, I mean ANY codeine means that you are in big trouble.

[swerve]

That was might first thought the unexploded ordnance. Then I remembered Islamic fanatics blowing themselves up whereever infidels are around. The Muslim world is not a safe place to be as a tourist, too many looking for their 72 virgins.

 

Chief cause of non-natural deaths of US tourists abroad is road traffic accidents (34% - 768 in 2003-2005). Murders 17%, mostly not terrorist-related. Terrorism accounted for 2%. The average Muslim country is safer for an American or W. European to visit than much of Latin America.

 

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/yellowBookCh6-Injuries.aspx

 

23.8 million tourists visited Turkey last year, mostly from Europe. Morocco had over 7 million, Tunisia about the same (both mostly Europeans), Egypt about 10 million (30% European), Dubai over 2 million Europeans. Do you know how many of them were killed by terrorists? IIRC ONE - a German missionary, along with two Christian converts, in Turkey. His killers are now in jail. 1 in 40 million or so - pretty good odds. I'd worry more about dangerous roads & ordinary crime, if I was you.

 

BTW, in Turkey, Kurdish nationalists are a much bigger danger to tourists than Islamist terrorists.

[Ken Estes]

e.g. -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

 

Four years jail for having 0.003 grams of cannabis on the sole of your shoe.

Even melatonin?? I used to use it vs. jetlag. Fascinating, Paul, but some of the reader comments are equally unnerving!

[Ken Estes]

Chief cause of non-natural deaths of US tourists abroad is road traffic accidents (34% - 768 in 2003-2005). Murders 17%, mostly not terrorist-related. Terrorism accounted for 2%. The average Muslim country is safer for an American or W. European to visit than much of Latin America.

 

It's amazing how jittery US tourists and overseas residents became after 9-11, thinking that it was open season I guess. In my year in the UAE many of the ex-pats would say they were Canucks, avoid going out, etc. Even before that, the US forces used to warn us in Spain against ETA and GRAPO, although they had never targeted US personnel. I used to walk to the AmEmbassy events in service uniform on days it was required, as it was a reasonable distance, explaining to my aghast colleagues that the USMC uniform could not be confused with any Spanish one, that the real danger to US personnel in Madrid was being caught in a crossfire between ETA and the security forces....

[Xavier]

Even melatonin?? I used to use it vs. jetlag. Fascinating, Paul, but some of the reader comments are equally unnerving!

indeed they are! Must be fans of the GeStaPo...

[Mikel2]

It's amazing how jittery US tourists and overseas residents became after 9-11, thinking that it was open season I guess. In my year in the UAE many of the ex-pats would say they were Canucks, avoid going out, etc. Even before that, the US forces used to warn us in Spain against ETA and GRAPO, although they had never targeted US personnel. I used to walk to the AmEmbassy events in service uniform on days it was required, as it was a reasonable distance, explaining to my aghast colleagues that the USMC uniform could not be confused with any Spanish one, that the real danger to US personnel in Madrid was being caught in a crossfire between ETA and the security forces....

 

 

Rather interestingly, the three Basque provinces have some of the lowest crime rates in the entire country. I currently live in sunny Connecticut and what a difference... No wonder people drive everywhere.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Mikel2

[Archie Pellagio]

That was might first thought the unexploded ordnance. Then I remembered Islamic fanatics blowing themselves up whereever infidels are around. The Muslim world is not a safe place to be as a tourist, too many looking for their 72 virgins.

 

I would say that with the exception of Iraq, Afghanistan, and a handful of localized areas the middle east is on the whole a very safe destination for tourists.

I would have no qualms travelling anywhere in the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain. More than could be said for many western countries.

 

The chances of getting blown up or beheaded are so slight as to be nonconsequential, i'd be more worried about getting run over than from al qaeda.

 

Even places like Yemen, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan, to be killed by a bomb you have to be so amazingly unlucky that the odds would be unquantifiable, the proviso being you don't do anything incredibly stupid, but even still...

 

Not interesting in quibbling, but one must say 'liberal' only in comparison to some [not all]of the other Gulf security regimes. It is still run for the benefit exclusively for the 18% 'national' population and especially their ruling elites. The stories are legion, for instance how one westerner working there flipped the bird at a Mercedes that ran her off the road, was dismissed and on plane home in 24 hrs, having offended one of the hierarchy. The UAE has fine press, carefully managed, but was chagrined to find itself listed in 2002 as one of 19 level III [= worst] violators of Human Trafficking in both UN and State Dept lists that stated that the UAE is a ‘country of destination for trafficked persons’ and criticizes the lack of legislation criminalizing the practice.

 

The one 'dry' emirate of the seven, Sharjah, still uses Shar'ia law, so one does not shack up there with one's honey, unless she is also the wife....

 

Best bet in the region for western ways would be Qatar, formerly was Bahrain.

 

Doesn't it make sense that immigrant workers are there primarily for the benefit and at the good graces of the local population?

It is their country after all...

As for human trafficking and the like, the UAE (Dubai in particular) is basically Saudi Arabia goes Vegas, I have a beautiful photo of a hotel "Sun City" with the 'U' partly out and the sign reading "Sin City"

 

And sharjah is a bitch, they don't even allow sheesha cafes for pete's sake...

 

But at the end of the day i really think ex pats bitch too much about life in the gulf states, afterall, its not as though anyone has a gun to their heads forcing them to stay and accept $100k a year tax free, with flights home, generous holidays and accommodation...

[KingSargent]

That was might first thought the unexploded ordnance. Then I remembered Islamic fanatics blowing themselves up whereever infidels are around. The Muslim world is not a safe place to be as a tourist, too many looking for their 72 virgins.

Egypt is VERY sensitive to anything that affects the tourist trade. Security would be tight.

[TheSilentType]

I'd worry more about dangerous roads & ordinary crime, if I was you.

 

No kidding, especially once you see the way that Arabs drive

[Ken Estes]

....

But at the end of the day i really think ex pats bitch too much about life in the gulf states, afterall, its not as though anyone has a gun to their heads forcing them to stay and accept $100k a year tax free, with flights home, generous holidays and accommodation...

You'd make a great Emirati, perhaps, but they do not grant citizenship to outsiders, even for the Indians who had provided the middle management since the days of Empire east of Aden. Yes, the labor force remains most ungrateful, even to the extent of sending most of their their pay home to their families [called 'remission' in those parts]. The old days of making an easy $100K are gone, however, and they have carefully recalculated their salary scales for westerners [only about 3% of the population, but essential] in order to factor in the tax exemption, schools, housing/utilities provided, and 'benefits.' For the sweat labor, however, they are just told to drink more water as they work high steel at 2-4pm in July-August.... The best bet is to work there for a western corporation, and you will not have to surrender your passport to your employer, in most such cases. Yet, one finds few opportunities to use the term 'generous' there, however.

 

My disappointment with the western ex-pats came with the realization that they were likely to emulate their masters in the treatment of the unfortunate masses in sweat labor and services. This happens throughout the Gulf, I am told. A very interesting region.

[Archie Pellagio]

You'd make a great Emirati, perhaps, but they do not grant citizenship to outsiders, even for the Indians who had provided the middle management since the days of Empire east of Aden. Yes, the labor force remains most ungrateful, even to the extent of sending most of their their pay home to their families [called 'remission' in those parts]. The old days of making an easy $100K are gone, however, and they have carefully recalculated their salary scales for westerners [only about 3% of the population, but essential] in order to factor in the tax exemption, schools, housing/utilities provided, and 'benefits.' For the sweat labor, however, they are just told to drink more water as they work high steel at 2-4pm in July-August.... The best bet is to work there for a western corporation, and you will not have to surrender your passport to your employer, in most such cases. Yet, one finds few opportunities to use the term 'generous' there, however.

 

My disappointment with the western ex-pats came with the realization that they were likely to emulate their masters in the treatment of the unfortunate masses in sweat labor and services. This happens throughout the Gulf, I am told. A very interesting region.

 

Ken i'm well aware of what life in the gulf is like, and i'm aware most western pay (partucularly places like dubai) are much more westernized than Saud or Kuwait in the 80's, but the fact is if it was so damn terrible it wouldn't be the hottest place on the planet tfor the expat community. These days, Qatar and Bahrain are considered dream postings.

 

As for the sub-continental / filopino labor force being "ungreatful" how do you work that out?

 

They go there at great personal sacrifice to be able to make enough money to feed their families, put their kids through school. They don't go because of the great conditions but the money they stand to make. They can earn often in the realm of $25k p/a for labouring - A veritable fortune for them.

That they don't care for the gulf arabs is not shocking.

 

But at the end of the day, everyone else is there simply at the national's good graces and to better their country. You don't give visas to people you don't want in your country, its not complicated...

[KingSargent]

My disappointment with the western ex-pats came with the realization that they were likely to emulate their masters in the treatment of the unfortunate masses in sweat labor and services. This happens throughout the Gulf, I am told. A very interesting region.

Think it's something in the water?

 

Or lack of water....

[Ken Estes]

....

 

They go there at great personal sacrifice to be able to make enough money to feed their families, put their kids through school. They don't go because of the great conditions but the money they stand to make. They can earn often in the realm of $25k p/a for labouring - A veritable fortune for them.

 

....

 

 

Those phrases could be read almost any day in a copy of the Gulf News. Heartrending tales of the unwashed given good jobs by the nationals, even allowed home [when the employer returns their passport to them] leave so they can be reunited with their families [who otherwise cannot visit, for lack of a 'proper' sponsor], are given free health care [except for a serious illness or possible disabling, whence they are simply sent home] and housing [with curfew], and good working conditions [except for the five guys who died in single day at one worksite, from heatstroke at 2:30 pm "...we told them to drink lots of water"].

 

But, the UAE is most liberal, and technically the employers are not allowed to rape their Filipino maids, as has been reported too much from Kuwait & S.A. Does the term 'generous' come to mind?

 

Perhaps they learned too well from their former imperial masters. I view it as the dusted off and modernized version of slavery. The 4th-5th world population is culled for indentured servitude, would be the polite version.

[Ken Estes]

Think it's something in the water?

 

Or lack of water....

It was really insidious, King. People in this select category have their own Club Med lifestyle. I had an immense 3BR furnished flat to myself, with two a/c systems [one for the BR area, another for the rest], plenty of money, they sent a car & driver if I had to work after hours on recall, all the shops, westernlike amenities, good restaurants and, in Abu Dhabi, the 4-5* hotels served booze, which one could buy for personal use once you qualified [pay, nationality, religion] for the liquor ration card. I met the regional rep for McDonnell-Douglas [former marine pilot] whose kids had grown up going to Dubai private schools, all went to Texas A&M for college, and What a Wonderful Life. Notice that he certainly did not live in S.A. I attended a meeting of the American Business Club with a colleague from work, but only once. They had the new ambassador as guest and speaker and she was at pains to reassure them of their safety [it was 2002 and the colons were very nervous abut the imminent war with Iraq].

 

Fascinating, yet somewhat sad.

[Archie Pellagio]

Those phrases could be read almost any day in a copy of the Gulf News. Heartrending tales of the unwashed given good jobs by the nationals, even allowed home [when the employer returns their passport to them] leave so they can be reunited with their families [who otherwise cannot visit, for lack of a 'proper' sponsor], are given free health care [except for a serious illness or possible disabling, whence they are simply sent home] and housing [with curfew], and good working conditions [except for the five guys who died in single day at one worksite, from heatstroke at 2:30 pm "...we told them to drink lots of water"].

 

But, the UAE is most liberal, and technically the employers are not allowed to rape their Filipino maids, as has been reported too much from Kuwait & S.A. Does the term 'generous' come to mind?

 

Perhaps they learned too well from their former imperial masters. I view it as the dusted off and modernized version of slavery. The 4th-5th world population is culled for indentured servitude, would be the polite version.

 

Ken i'm not disagreeing with what you say, its not the land of milk and honey by any stretch for those guys, yes they're mistreated, yes they're exploited (ever wonder how the official temperatures magically never get above 49.9*c ?)

Yet they still keep flocking there...

 

I'm well aware of the conditions there for westerners, and I have my own issues with wusta filled gulf arabs, but the fact is your experience sounds more like KSA, rather than my own and hundreds of other expats (including my father (dubai) and uncle (KSA, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi, Dubai & Bahrain) and countless others. Either that or what many Europeans call "Typical American" views...

 

Yes living there has prickles, but you know exactly what they are when you take the job. if you don't like them don't go, its not complicated.

 

And westerners and subcontinentals still flock there...

[Ken Estes]

I'm well aware of the conditions there for westerners, and I have my own issues with wusta filled gulf arabs, but the fact is your experience sounds more like KSA, rather than my own and hundreds of other expats (including my father (dubai) and uncle (KSA, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi, Dubai & Bahrain) and countless others. Either that or what many Europeans call "Typical American" views...

I personally had a fun time there, if you read again. However, I paid a little more attention to what else was going on than the average ex-pat, who perhaps did not want to think about how a truly generous country might have handled the sweat labor. How did you treat yours, hmmm? Then again, I was working in a 'think tank' and so I did think a little.

[Archie Pellagio]

I personally had a fun time there, if you read again. However, I paid a little more attention to what else was going on than the average ex-pat, who perhaps did not want to think about how a truly generous country might have handled the sweat labor. How did you treat yours, hmmm? Then again, I was working in a 'think tank' and so I did think a little.

 

I saw very clearly how the Pak/SriLankan/bangladeshi/Fillo etc labourers were treated.

Sure it sucked. Yes, I felt sorry for them.

But you know what?

They were a lot better off than they would've been back home. These guys all have an attitude not unlike many immigrants, uprooting to get a better life for their kids.

 

As for myself, the only sub-continental workers I worked with were all white collar, the labourers were what I saw out the airconditioned, condensation covered windows.

 

There is very much three (or even four) "castes" in the gulf.

1. Nationals

2. Western Ex-pats

3. Sub-Continental workers, Fillipinos etc

4. Africans, often there illegally.

 

Life sucks, it is cruel. But you take the good with the bad and make your choices.

[Ken Estes]

No kidding, especially once you see the way that Arabs drive

Does that mean that New Jersey is an Arab state??