sandbags

[aglooka]

When were sandbags used for the first time in field fortifications ?

Any ideas ?

 

Aglooka

[thekirk]

I was just going to answer "Russo-Japanese War", but then, I realized I'm not really sure, either.

 

I can tell you that bastions and gabions (wicker-filled baskets) have been in use since antiquity, but I'm unsure, now that I think of if, of when purpose-made sandbags came into use. I know I've seen pictures of Civil-War era fortifications, somewhere, where they used flour bags, and so forth, but... I don't know for sure when they started making the things for that single purpose.

 

Interesting question, when you think about it. I've read a lot about field fortifications, over the years, but never have I seen that particular point actually addressed. Had to be pre-WWI, but I just don't know when, exactly.

[BP]

I can tell you that bastions and gabions (wicker-filled baskets) have been in use since antiquity, but I'm unsure, now that I think of if, of when purpose-made sandbags came into use. I know I've seen pictures of Civil-War era fortifications, somewhere, where they used flour bags, and so forth, but... I don't know for sure when they started making the things for that single purpose.

 

There were trenches on the grounds of my father-in-law's old company in Richmond, VA, and when they excavated for a state project in the '90s they found fabric remnants of sandbags and stuff in the clay.

 

As an aside: My wife's uncle is a rabid amateur archaeologist and digger, and a few years back he found a thread in a hole he was excavating. He pulled it out intact, and on the strung on the thread were regimental buttons from 5-6 different states. It's the prize of his massive collection, and presumably from that Civil War soldier's as well until he lost it.

[Marek Tucan]

I recall that in that fictional story, Defense of cant-recall-the-name Drift, setting up various scenarios in the Boer war, there is mention of the unit being issued "new sandbags"...

[rmgill]

I recall that in that fictional story, Defense of cant-recall-the-name Drift, setting up various scenarios in the Boer war, there is mention of the unit being issued "new sandbags"...

 

The real defense of the Mission/hospital at Rourkes Drift had 55 lb mealie bags being used as defensive materials for a wall.

[Marek Tucan]

The real defense of the Mission/hospital at Rourkes Drift had 55 lb mealie bags being used as defensive materials for a wall.

 

It wasn't Rorke's drift, it's a set of "short stories", happening subsequently at the same location, always from the perspective of fresh British Lieutenant Backsight Forethought who gets a platoon of troops and mission to hold cannot-recall-the-name Drift against suspected Boer raid. Each story contains several tactical lessons that are dissected at the end.

 

 

Ah! Found it! Name's Defense of Duffer's Drift by Captain (later Major-Genral) E.D. Swinton, DSO, RE:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/cs...ton/Swinton.asp

 

 

Enjoy!

[BP]

It wasn't Rorke's drift, it's a set of "short stories", happening subsequently at the same location, always from the perspective of fresh British Lieutenant Backsight Forethought who gets a platoon of troops and mission to hold cannot-recall-the-name Drift against suspected Boer raid. Each story contains several tactical lessons that are dissected at the end.

Ah! Found it! Name's Defense of Duffer's Drift by Captain (later Major-Genral) E.D. Swinton, DSO, RE:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/cs...ton/Swinton.asp

Enjoy!

 

That and "The Defense of Hill 781" were companion books in the CVC bag of just about all my lieutenant buddies!

[EvanDP]

Is there a method for sandbag placement and usage. I've seen pictures of nice and neat rows and if seen pictures of piles of sandbags. Is there a rule of thumb or manual that details how it's done.

[Ol Paint]

Well, there is this version of the history of sandbags (Post #23) as related during the 2005 Life of the Soldier show at Fort Knox...

 

Douglas

[EvanDP]

Well, there is this version of the history of sandbags (Post #23) as related during the 2005 Life of the Soldier show at Fort Knox...

 

Douglas

Damn that was funny. I'm saving a copy.

[Archie Pellagio]

How are sandbags issued?

 

At what level are tons and tons of canvas bags carried?

Does the Battalion have a "bag carrier truck" with nothing but sandbags?

 

What about pre-motorization? All those sandbags in the boer war, WWI etc.

How did they migrate to the front? Was there a "601st Horse and Bag Regiment"?

How did Boer War units out in the boonies do it?

[thekirk]

Current US doctrine has sandbags as CLIV material. Each unit is supposed to carry a set amount as part of their basic load, but nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they don't. Figuring that they'll just get them from the Engineers, if they really, really need them.

 

Doctrinally, all CLIV is supposed to be a supply item. What winds up happening, however, is that the only person giving a flying fig about those materials is the Engineer for whatever unit. Which leads to the Engineers running the flippin' CLIV yard, despite not being designed to support such an activity. Usually, you wind up having to give up personnel and equipment out of your already austere Engineer MTOE in order to run the damn things. The other option is to leave it up to the support services or the maneuver bubbas, and that just leaves you without CLIV.

 

I could tell you horror stories about ordering stuff for the unit during OIF I, having it arrive at the Division FSB yard, and then having the idiots at the FSB decide to just break the stuff down by brigades, and distro it out. Leaving several dozen high-priority construction projects assed out for materials, while all the ordered plywood and other materials went to construct shelves in tents, and so forth.

 

CLIV is one of the areas that really needs to be re-looked at, in my opinion. Like maps, making all that stuff the responsibility of the supply folks just hasn't worked all that well, in actual practice. I shudder to think what they'd do with something like the GDP in the Fulda region, under today's supply doctrine. I seriously doubt all the mines and materials would wind up in the right places to have any effect.

[Archie Pellagio]

Current US doctrine has sandbags as CLIV material. Each unit is supposed to carry a set amount as part of their basic load, but nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they don't. Figuring that they'll just get them from the Engineers, if they really, really need them.

 

Doctrinally, all CLIV is supposed to be a supply item. What winds up happening, however, is that the only person giving a flying fig about those materials is the Engineer for whatever unit. Which leads to the Engineers running the flippin' CLIV yard, despite not being designed to support such an activity. Usually, you wind up having to give up personnel and equipment out of your already austere Engineer MTOE in order to run the damn things. The other option is to leave it up to the support services or the maneuver bubbas, and that just leaves you without CLIV.

 

I could tell you horror stories about ordering stuff for the unit during OIF I, having it arrive at the Division FSB yard, and then having the idiots at the FSB decide to just break the stuff down by brigades, and distro it out. Leaving several dozen high-priority construction projects assed out for materials, while all the ordered plywood and other materials went to construct shelves in tents, and so forth.

 

CLIV is one of the areas that really needs to be re-looked at, in my opinion. Like maps, making all that stuff the responsibility of the supply folks just hasn't worked all that well, in actual practice. I shudder to think what they'd do with something like the GDP in the Fulda region, under today's supply doctrine. I seriously doubt all the mines and materials would wind up in the right places to have any effect.

 

Sorry, quick Q's

 

1) What is CLIV?

 

2) "Each unit is supposed to carry a set amount as part of their basic load"

Unit? Is that Company? Battalion? Brigade?

 

3) Are they the domain of Engineers or CSS / Supply?

[thekirk]

Sorry, Luke. Assumptions about background information got me...

 

To explain supply categories, this is how the US breaks down the various classes of supply:

 

* Class I - Subsistence (food), gratuitous (free) health and comfort items.

 

* Class II - Clothing, individual equipment, tentage, organizational tool sets and kits, hand tools, unclassified maps, administrative and housekeeping supplies and equipment.

 

* Class III - Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants (POL) (package and bulk): Petroleum, fuels, lubricants, hydraulic and insulating oils, preservatives, liquids and gases, bulk chemical products, coolants, deicer and antifreeze compounds, components, and additives of petroleum and chemical products, and coal.

 

* Class IV - Construction materials, including installed equipment and all fortification and barrier materials.

 

* Class V - Ammunition of all types, bombs, explosives, mines, fuzes, detonators, pyrotechnics, missiles, rockets, propellants, and associated items.

 

* Class VI - Personal demand items (such as health and hygiene products, soaps and toothpaste, writing material, snack food, beverages, cigarettes, batteries, alcohol, and cameras—nonmilitary sales items).

 

* Class VII - Major end items such as launchers, tanks, mobile machine shops, and vehicles.

 

* Class VIII - Medical material (equipment and consummables) including repair parts peculiar to medical equipment. (Class VIIIa – Medical consummable supplies not including blood & blood products; Class VIIIb – Blood & blood components (whole blood, platelets, plasma, packed red cells, etc).

 

* Class IX - Repair parts and components to include kits, assemblies, and subassemblies (repairable or non-repairable) required for maintenance support of all equipment.

 

* Class X - Material to support nonmilitary programs such as agriculture and economic development (not included in Classes I through IX).

 

* Miscellaneous - Water, salvage, and captured material.

 

 

NATO uses only the first five, and I'm not sure about ANZUS. There should be something in the various STANAGs about this...

 

Each unit level has a set amount, determined by the unit commander, as to what they're supposed to have on hand and/or carry. This goes from squad/team level all the way up to theater army level. The manuals and doctrine will recommend what level the commander dictates, but that's only a recommendation. Very often, stuff like CLIV will wind up being left by the wayside, since the Engineer for that unit will take the attitude that it's a supply/CSS thing, and the supply/CSS folks will ignore doctrine, and say it's an Engineer problem.

 

Once upon a time, all the CLIV was an Engineer branch responsibility, along with the CLV items that went into constructing field fortifications, like land mines and demolition material. Then, someone, probably the supply folks decided that CSS should control everything, and that responsibility was taken away, along with the personnel to run the CLIV and V points. Since the resources to run these things got taken, the Engineer branch has understandably tried to insist that the CSS folks do the job they took over. Unfortunately, very few supply/loggy types seem to understand these things, and you see some seriously weird things happen, at least from the worms-eye perspective of an Engineer NCO trying to get things done. Things like the rear-area loggies loading up semi-trailers with concertina wire and pickets, crush-fitting the trailers with rough-terrain forklifts, and then dropping the materials off at supply points in what amounts to giant rats-nests of barbed tape and pickets. Which then have to be pried apart and untangled to get any use out of them, whatsoever. And, when the obstacle belts don't get constructed, due to all of the Engineers having to spend their time untangling wire, the loggies then blame the Engineers: "Well, *we* got all of the materials delivered on time...". Except that they were delivered in a state totally unfit for use. Been there, done that, have the scars on my forearms to show for it.

 

Everything that is delivered to the battlefield is supposed to be the domain of the CSS/supply types. The problem is that, in peacetime, they don't ever have to exercise delivering CLIV, so they don't learn the ins and outs of it, creating issues when you actually try to do anything. The problem is exacerbated by the Engineer tendency to just get the job done, usually hauling training materials with vehicles that are allocated to carrying the unit's basic load in wartime. This leads to a vicious circle, in which the loggies never have to face the problems of hauling things around the battlefield, and the Engineers wind up giving all concerned a very distorted view of what's possible. We're our own worst enemies, sometimes.

 

Just about every base you go to, you will find a huge storage area of training wire, mines, and everything else CLIV and V related. Who's running it? Never the loggies, always the Engineer. Then, when the balloon goes up, the Engineers are sitting there, pointing to the paragraph in the field manual where it says "All this is the responsibility of CSS..." and, the loggies are going "WTF? We never trained this way in peacetime...".

 

It's an artifact of peacetime training and operations. I'm hearing that a lot of this is being fixed, as we speak, and that they're doing more realistic training, but it's a been an issue for most of my career. Some of us could see the writing on the wall, but getting someone to actually read it, and do something about it? Ha. And double-ha. We were also the people telling the powers-that-be that, "Gee, the South Africans have some really neat counter-mine equipment... Maybe we ought to be buying some? Or, at least looking into it?". Attention wasn't paid to that particular issue until we started losing people, sadly. Of course, the powers-that-be were probably right, in that Congress wasn't about to pay for that stuff until they had no other choice, but, still.. It rankles.

[Archie Pellagio]

Sorry, Luke. Assumptions about background information got me...

 

To explain supply categories, this is how the US breaks down the various classes of supply:

 

* Class I - Subsistence (food), gratuitous (free) health and comfort items.

 

* Class II - Clothing, individual equipment, tentage, organizational tool sets and kits, hand tools, unclassified maps, administrative and housekeeping supplies and equipment.

 

* Class III - Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants (POL) (package and bulk): Petroleum, fuels, lubricants, hydraulic and insulating oils, preservatives, liquids and gases, bulk chemical products, coolants, deicer and antifreeze compounds, components, and additives of petroleum and chemical products, and coal.

 

* Class IV - Construction materials, including installed equipment and all fortification and barrier materials.

 

* Class V - Ammunition of all types, bombs, explosives, mines, fuzes, detonators, pyrotechnics, missiles, rockets, propellants, and associated items.

 

* Class VI - Personal demand items (such as health and hygiene products, soaps and toothpaste, writing material, snack food, beverages, cigarettes, batteries, alcohol, and cameras—nonmilitary sales items).

 

* Class VII - Major end items such as launchers, tanks, mobile machine shops, and vehicles.

 

* Class VIII - Medical material (equipment and consummables) including repair parts peculiar to medical equipment. (Class VIIIa – Medical consummable supplies not including blood & blood products; Class VIIIb – Blood & blood components (whole blood, platelets, plasma, packed red cells, etc).

 

* Class IX - Repair parts and components to include kits, assemblies, and subassemblies (repairable or non-repairable) required for maintenance support of all equipment.

 

* Class X - Material to support nonmilitary programs such as agriculture and economic development (not included in Classes I through IX).

 

* Miscellaneous - Water, salvage, and captured material.

 

 

NATO uses only the first five, and I'm not sure about ANZUS. There should be something in the various STANAGs about this...

 

Each unit level has a set amount, determined by the unit commander, as to what they're supposed to have on hand and/or carry. This goes from squad/team level all the way up to theater army level. The manuals and doctrine will recommend what level the commander dictates, but that's only a recommendation. Very often, stuff like CLIV will wind up being left by the wayside, since the Engineer for that unit will take the attitude that it's a supply/CSS thing, and the supply/CSS folks will ignore doctrine, and say it's an Engineer problem.

 

Once upon a time, all the CLIV was an Engineer branch responsibility, along with the CLV items that went into constructing field fortifications, like land mines and demolition material. Then, someone, probably the supply folks decided that CSS should control everything, and that responsibility was taken away, along with the personnel to run the CLIV and V points. Since the resources to run these things got taken, the Engineer branch has understandably tried to insist that the CSS folks do the job they took over. Unfortunately, very few supply/loggy types seem to understand these things, and you see some seriously weird things happen, at least from the worms-eye perspective of an Engineer NCO trying to get things done. Things like the rear-area loggies loading up semi-trailers with concertina wire and pickets, crush-fitting the trailers with rough-terrain forklifts, and then dropping the materials off at supply points in what amounts to giant rats-nests of barbed tape and pickets. Which then have to be pried apart and untangled to get any use out of them, whatsoever. And, when the obstacle belts don't get constructed, due to all of the Engineers having to spend their time untangling wire, the loggies then blame the Engineers: "Well, *we* got all of the materials delivered on time...". Except that they were delivered in a state totally unfit for use. Been there, done that, have the scars on my forearms to show for it.

 

Everything that is delivered to the battlefield is supposed to be the domain of the CSS/supply types. The problem is that, in peacetime, they don't ever have to exercise delivering CLIV, so they don't learn the ins and outs of it, creating issues when you actually try to do anything. The problem is exacerbated by the Engineer tendency to just get the job done, usually hauling training materials with vehicles that are allocated to carrying the unit's basic load in wartime. This leads to a vicious circle, in which the loggies never have to face the problems of hauling things around the battlefield, and the Engineers wind up giving all concerned a very distorted view of what's possible. We're our own worst enemies, sometimes.

 

Just about every base you go to, you will find a huge storage area of training wire, mines, and everything else CLIV and V related. Who's running it? Never the loggies, always the Engineer. Then, when the balloon goes up, the Engineers are sitting there, pointing to the paragraph in the field manual where it says "All this is the responsibility of CSS..." and, the loggies are going "WTF? We never trained this way in peacetime...".

 

It's an artifact of peacetime training and operations. I'm hearing that a lot of this is being fixed, as we speak, and that they're doing more realistic training, but it's a been an issue for most of my career. Some of us could see the writing on the wall, but getting someone to actually read it, and do something about it? Ha. And double-ha. We were also the people telling the powers-that-be that, "Gee, the South Africans have some really neat counter-mine equipment... Maybe we ought to be buying some? Or, at least looking into it?". Attention wasn't paid to that particular issue until we started losing people, sadly. Of course, the powers-that-be were probably right, in that Congress wasn't about to pay for that stuff until they had no other choice, but, still.. It rankles.

 

Thanks Kirk!

[67th Tigers]

How are sandbags issued?

 

At what level are tons and tons of canvas bags carried?

Does the Battalion have a "bag carrier truck" with nothing but sandbags?

 

What about pre-motorization? All those sandbags in the boer war, WWI etc.

How did they migrate to the front? Was there a "601st Horse and Bag Regiment"?

How did Boer War units out in the boonies do it?

 

Now? The bulk of them are carried in the battalion defence stores, along with wriggly tin, pickets, proper entrenching tools, mines (when we were allowed them), wire etc.

 

Yes, several 4 tonners with all that nastiness.....

[Archie Pellagio]

Now? The bulk of them are carried in the battalion defence stores, along with wriggly tin, pickets, proper entrenching tools, mines (when we were allowed them), wire etc.

 

Yes, several 4 tonners with all that nastiness.....

 

So for something like OIF I for instance the bulk of that stuff would've been carried at Bn level?

 

What about ODS?

Same for Div?

 

And in the 80's and before in Europe? Would they have been prepositioned and each Bn takes, or at Div level?

 

Cheers, Luke

[67th Tigers]

So for something like OIF I for instance the bulk of that stuff would've been carried at Bn level?

 

What about ODS?

Same for Div?

 

And in the 80's and before in Europe? Would they have been prepositioned and each Bn takes, or at Div level?

 

Cheers, Luke

 

I have "Gulf Logistics" to hand, and 1 (UK) AD(-)'s defence stores were packed in 80 ISO containers (1,200 tons of it) and held by the divisional admin area. I believe the bulk of defence stores were to be delivered to battalion, rather than held by it. All I ever got off Bn was an airborne shovel and 50 sandbags (which is what I think we'd carry if occupying a position, the heavy stuff was supplied after we'd dug down to stage 1).

[aglooka]

What about the Crimean war ?

e.g. theres is a picture of sandbags used together with gabions here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Malakhov2.jpg

 

aglooka

[thekirk]

Aglooka, I assumed you were asking about purpose-made sandbags...

 

I'm pretty sure that as soon as someone realized they had surplus flour/meal bags, they also realized they could be filled with earth and used as part of field fortifications. I would doubt the Romans used such things, but as soon as textiles were made in an industrialized setting, and cloth wasn't a hand-made luxury item, such bags became likely candidates for filling with things and taking part in fortifications.

 

I've done some looking, and so far, I've found absolutely nothing that speaks to when purpose-made sandbags were invented, who invented them, and where that happened. Someone must have researched this, at some point, but I'll be danged if I can find it on the internet. Maybe someone who's got access to the Royal Engineer Museum at Cheltenham could ask, and find out. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a British invention, given all that the Royal Engineers have given us down the years.

Edited February 3, 2008 by thekirk

[Special-K]

It wasn't Rorke's drift, it's a set of "short stories", happening subsequently at the same location, always from the perspective of fresh British Lieutenant Backsight Forethought who gets a platoon of troops and mission to hold cannot-recall-the-name Drift against suspected Boer raid. Each story contains several tactical lessons that are dissected at the end.

Ah! Found it! Name's Defense of Duffer's Drift by Captain (later Major-Genral) E.D. Swinton, DSO, RE:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/cs...ton/Swinton.asp

Enjoy!

 

 

I have my own copy of it and I have thouroughly enjoyed reading it several times. We all had to read in Intel Analyst school and had some rather long discussions about it.

 

Defence of Hill 187 was a good read too! It's along the same vein as DoDD, but set in the late '80's. I have that one also.

 

While tactics and technology change, the principals discussed in both remain valid throuogh the years.

 

 

-K