65 Years ago at Stalingrad...

[Detonable]

Usual explanations for the German defeat include Soviet superiority in fighting with small infantry teams, and the effectiveness of Soviet anti-tank weapons in flank attacks from alleys, etc. But, it seems to me that since the Germans took most of the city, these weren't overwhelmingly effective.

 

In Stephen Walsh's book on Stalingrad, he claims that the later German attacks were broken up by Soviet artillery. Perhaps for one of the first times in the war, the Soviet artillery had a relatively fixed target, which allowed them time to set up and hit it repeatedly? Could it be that the Soviet artillery was the decisive weapon in the battle?

 

One thing that has not been clearly explained is how the Soviets had any ammunition or reinforcements after the Germans reached the waterline. Soviet transportation across the Volga should have been visible. Why wasn't it stopped by German artillery? Was the length of riverbank remaining in Soviet hands long enough to put shipping out of range?

 

Walsh suggests that Soviet artillery, especially on the far bank of the Don, was not silenced by the Germans. One would think that the large guns at least would have a significant muzzle flash, and would be visible to the Luftwaffe, which had air supremacy during most of the German drive. Why weren't these guns taken out, or at least their crews? Were the crews replaced repeatedly? The Luftwaffe in the region declined in numbers during the last half of 1942, since production did not keep place with losses, and the % of planes available also decreased with time.

 

Walsh also claims the Germans were not able to interdict Soviet transport to the area. Were the German planes so short ranged the Soviets only had to repair a short section of line? In the Moscow thread its noted the Murmansk line was also under attack but still delivered immense amounts of freight.

[Archie Pellagio]

One thing that has not been clearly explained is how the Soviets had any ammunition or reinforcements after the Germans reached the waterline. Soviet transportation across the Volga should have been visible. Why wasn't it stopped by German artillery? Was the length of riverbank remaining in Soviet hands long enough to put shipping out of range?

 

Because the germans only managed to get a temporary, small breakthrough to the riverbank, and didn't hold it long.

As for arty, they only had limited control of the strategic hills etc to view the river. The mill etc on those hills were brutally fought over, and one can still be viewed today.

 

As for the length of the river, the germans always controlled the peripheries of the city itself (except for the last days), so supplying the sov forces in town by landing upstream pre-Uranus wasn't feasable.

[KingSargent]

Fighting in the city had very little to do with the Germans losing the battle. What cost them was having weak allied/puppet armies on the flanks that the Soviets were able to penetrate to effect the encirclement. And of course the blundering after the encirclement.

 

It should be remembered that Operation MARS against Army Group Center at the same time as URANUS against Stalingrad got nowhere. MARS was as big a battle, fought at the same time, with approximately equal opposing forces (I mean there were as many if not more USSR forces committed to MARS as to URANUS); the difference was MARS fought German armies instead of Rumanian and Italian, so there were no major breakthroughs.

[Marek Tucan]

Fighting in the city had very little to do with the Germans losing the battle. What cost them was having weak allied/puppet armies on the flanks that the Soviets were able to penetrate to effect the encirclement. And of course the blundering after the encirclement.

 

I'd say tying up bulk of German forces in and around Stalingrad was critical for them losing the battle - they weren't in position to quickly move sufficient reserves to block the breakthroughs.

[JWB]

I'd say tying up bulk of German forces in and around Stalingrad was critical for them losing the battle - they weren't in position to quickly move sufficient reserves to block the breakthroughs.

Actually they were in position to block the Soviet breakthrough and then pull out but Hitler wouldn't allow it.

[LeoTanker]

Actually they were in position to block the Soviet breakthrough and then pull out but Hitler wouldn't allow it.

 

Naa.. Im with Tuccy on this one. The Sov. breakthrough took place in the north-west sector of the front, far from the city it self. And since most german forces vere tied down in the city it was very hard for Paulus to react quickly enougth to the treath (even though he was well aware of it). Prior to the offensive orders had been given to Gen. Tjujkov and his 64th army in Stalingrad to attack the german forces in the city it self as fiercely as possible to prevent them from disengageing.

[Brummbaer]

Also King Sarge's remark to allied/puppet armies (why puppets?) seems to follow the good old tradition of blaming them for the german defeat. A tradition dating back to german generals' war memories.

With their overstretched fronts, and with their poor equipment and supports, that was an open invitation to a soviet offensive; and when it came they just did what they could: not much. The trouble laid in the german plan and Hitler's obsession for the city.

[Tomas Hoting]

It is a fact that, when the Soviet offensive started on November 19th 1942, it was the collapse of the Romanian lines which finally led to the encirclement of the German 6th army. The Romanian 3rd and 4th armies simply lacked the anti-tank armament and the experience to deal with the massed tank assaults, which completely demoralized them. I don't believe other armies would have reacted much differently.

 

Add to that Hitler's order to Paulus to stay put and not attempt an outbreak...

[Marek Tucan]

Yup, Romanians only had few 37mm popguns... They managed to put up fierce resistance at first, but eventually they were rolled over , esp. once higher ups desserted their men and ran for safety.

[Detonable]

You'd think the Luftwaffe could stop the Soviet artillery. Maybe Soviet antiaircraft batteries were the unsung hero of the battle. I don't know of any place to get good information about them.

[Jim Martin]

Because the germans only managed to get a temporary, small breakthrough to the riverbank, and didn't hold it long.

As for arty, they only had limited control of the strategic hills etc to view the river. The mill etc on those hills were brutally fought over,

 

 

The Stalingrad monument with the huge statue of Mother Russia is built atop the Mamayev Kurgan, the ancient burial mound which was a focus of some of the most brutal slaughter seen in such a small space in the entire war. There are still bodies in that mound which could not be recovered; the hill was hit by artillery from both Germans and Russians so many times that the ground was massively churned. Construction workers building the monument found the corpses of a German and Soviet soldier still locked in a death grip.

[Archie Pellagio]

The Stalingrad monument with the huge statue of Mother Russia is built atop the Mamayev Kurgan, the ancient burial mound which was a focus of some of the most brutal slaughter seen in such a small space in the entire war. There are still bodies in that mound which could not be recovered; the hill was hit by artillery from both Germans and Russians so many times that the ground was massively churned. Construction workers building the monument found the corpses of a German and Soviet soldier still locked in a death grip.

 

Theres a photo of it at the museum in Volgograd. Think that fossil of the mongolian Velociraptor and the Protoceratops...

 

There are still some buildings preserved as they were in 1943, gives you an idea of what the whole place looked like.

[Mk 1]

Yup, Romanians only had few 37mm popguns... They managed to put up fierce resistance at first, but eventually they were rolled over , esp. once higher ups desserted their men and ran for safety.

Actually, among the German allies and co-beligerents, the Romanians were the best equipped, at least as far as the quality of their AT weapons.

 

True that the majority of their tanks mounted 37mm "popguns", but the standard infantry AT guns were not 37mm. They also had a few Pz IVs with the 75mmL24 gun, no great shakes in a tank-on-tank fight, but demonstrated as capable enough when in the hands of the Panzertruppen or Sturmartillerie of the Wehrmacht.

 

For their AT guns the lower level units (regimental) were equipped with the Bohler 47mm, the same gun that equipped Italian troops (and the M13 tank in the desert). That, quite admittedly, did not even deserve the lable "AT gun" by 1942. But the higher level units (divisional) were equipped with the 47mm Schneider AT gun, which appears to have been a pretty respectable piece of kit. I believe it fired the same round as the 47mm APX gun used by the French in 1940 -- a round that put it almost on par with the 50mm PAK38 which equipped most German AT units at that time.

 

The Romanians also fielded French 75mm m1897 field pieces, which had decent AT performance for that period (same gun as was mounted in the US M3 tank destroyers in Tunisia at that same time).

 

Not that this meant the Romanians were well euqipped to fight a Soviet armored onslaught. The performance of their weapons was behind the German and Soviet guns (and armor), and more importantly, the quantity of their AT weapons was far too low for the type of battle that rolled over them. But they were better equipped than the Italians, Hungarians, or even Fins, when it came to the quality of their AT kit in 1942.

 

Or so I've read. Wasn't there myself. Certainly willing to learn more, if corrections seem to be in order.

 

-Mark 1

[Detonable]

No wonder the Germans were happy to rechamber Soviet 75mm antitank guns and use them. Engaging a T-34 with a 47mm gun seems almost futile, except at very close range.

 

But, in operation Mars, the Germans were fairly successful. I wonder how? I understand they were well dug in, but couldn't the T-34s stand off outside the range of the 50mm antitank guns and reduce the bunkers in many cases? Rommel made a comment in his diary that at El Alamein the British crewed Shermans stood by out of antitank gun range and fired repeatedly. Was the area too hilly to do this?

 

Maybe the German success (in response to Mars) was due to other factors than antitank defence, such as airpower or artillery. In November not a whole lot of airpower was available to the Rumanians, and their artillery was not very effective.

[KingSargent]

No wonder the Germans were happy to rechamber Soviet 75mm antitank guns and use them. Engaging a T-34 with a 47mm gun seems almost futile, except at very close range.

 

But, in operation Mars, the Germans were fairly successful. I wonder how? I understand they were well dug in, but couldn't the T-34s stand off outside the range of the 50mm antitank guns and reduce the bunkers in many cases? Rommel made a comment in his diary that at El Alamein the British crewed Shermans stood by out of antitank gun range and fired repeatedly. Was the area too hilly to do this?

 

Maybe the German success (in response to Mars) was due to other factors than antitank defence, such as airpower or artillery. In November not a whole lot of airpower was available to the Rumanians, and their artillery was not very effective.

The T-34s weren't supposed to stand off out of range and shell bunkers, they were supposed to penetrate. And although this IS TankNet, we should recall that most of the fighting was done by infantry.

 

IN the case of MARS, the problems on the eastern side of the salient were mainly traffic jams caused by lack of deployment room (and poor staff work). The URANUS forces had plenty of space to maneuver. On the west side of the MARS salient the Soviets managed breakthroughs but close terrain and poor tactical decisions limited them and the German were able to pull their classic stunt of attacking the base of the narrow penetration and cutting the Soviets off.

 

Basically the MARS forces lacked the room to bring their power to bear while the URANUS forces had wear German allied armies armies to attack and wide maneuver areas.