UK Centurions at war.

[Guest chippymick]

Hello all.

 

I'm aware that the UK used their Centurions in Korea.

 

Are there any other instances where the UK used them in anger?

 

Any other info on the Korean fighting would be helpful too. Were there any awards or decorations to Centurion Crewmen for example.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards

 

Mick

[philgollin]

I thought Suez

[Bearded-Dragon]

Aden and the Radfan?

[BillB]

Hello all.

 

I'm aware that the UK used their Centurions in Korea.

 

Are there any other instances where the UK used them in anger?

 

Any other info on the Korean fighting would be helpful too. Were there any awards or decorations to Centurion Crewmen for example.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards

 

Mick

If you count the Centurion AVRE then there is NI - Operation MOTORMAN, Londonderry July 1972. Sergeant A. Wallace, a Cent commander from C Squadron 1st RTR won the MM during the battle at The Hook in May 1953, and C Squadron 16th/5th Hussars are recorded as being the last Brit tanks to fire their guns in anger in the Radfan on 19 May 1964. Until the shennenigans in the Gulf in 1991 anyway. Info from Simon Dunstan, The Centurion Tank in Battle (London: Osprey, 1981). A bit dated mebbe but has the bare bones I think. There is prolly more detail in the text but I'm a bit pushed at the minute.

 

all the best,

Bill

[WRW]

I think the AVRE version was used to clear barricades in Operation Motorman in NI

[Tomas Hoting]

The crew of one Centurion 165 AVRE used the demo gun to blow up a Saddam edifice during GW2.

[DougRichards]

It is the existence of a threat in being that simetimes determines the effect of a weapons system.

 

Post 1945 how may USA and CCCP nukes were used in anger?

 

The Centurions represented a deterent in place that didn't have to be used in anger.

 

In much the same way as the Comets in the Berlin Garrison represented a trip-wire the the Soviets would cross: of negligable value in themselves, if attacked they would have represented a line in the sand to which NATO would have responded. As trip-wires they were effective.

 

Those who challenged Britainn 1950 to 1965 would have realised that the Centurion would give them a bad headache, amongst the other systems involved. Sometimes the value of a deterent is that it didn't have to be used.

 

In terms of 'Commonwealth forces': the RAAC stands as a classic use of the Cent in combat in VN.

[harryRIEDL]

i thought they sent 5 or so to Falklands i don't know weather they saw action there but im fairly sure they were sent

[Guest chippymick]

Gee you lot are good; and fast.

 

BillB, do tell more.

 

Doug. Fair point.

 

At the risk of going off topic early. I see plenty of parallels between the way Australia used their tanks in New Guinea/Bougainville/Borneo and twenty years later in Vietnam. That is, in the SW Pacific and Vietnam, Australians only ever used their Armour to head off into the scrub to bust bunkers. Is that unique?

 

Thanks so much.

 

regards

 

Mick

[Rich]

If you count the Centurion AVRE then there is NI - Operation MOTORMAN, Londonderry July 1972. Sergeant A. Wallace, a Cent commander from C Squadron 1st RTR won the MM during the battle at The Hook in May 1953, and C Squadron 16th/5th Hussars are recorded as being the last Brit tanks to fire their guns in anger in the Radfan on 19 May 1964. Until the shennenigans in the Gulf in 1991 anyway. Info from Simon Dunstan, The Centurion Tank in Battle (London: Osprey, 1981). A bit dated mebbe but has the bare bones I think. There is prolly more detail in the text but I'm a bit pushed at the minute.

 

all the best,

Bill

 

Hi Bill! I'm curious, but has he or anyone else you have run across mentioned when the Centurion actually first went into regular squadron service and with which regiment? I know the first six - and only - Mark I A. 41 Centurions were on the way to Germany for service test at the end of the war, but I've always been curious what happened to them after that? But when were the first Mark II A. 41A completed (I've seen reference to January 1946 but haven't been able to pin that down) and issued?

 

Rich

[RETAC21]

Hi Bill! I'm curious, but has he or anyone else you have run across mentioned when the Centurion actually first went into regular squadron service and with which regiment? I know the first six - and only - Mark I A. 41 Centurions were on the way to Germany for service test at the end of the war, but I've always been curious what happened to them after that? But when were the first Mark II A. 41A completed (I've seen reference to January 1946 but haven't been able to pin that down) and issued?

 

Rich

 

5th RTR, part of 7th Armoured Brigade of the 7th Armoured Division according to Bill Munro's "The Centurion Tank" in December 1946 was the first "in service" Cents (MkIs and Mk2s). Prior to that a trial was conducted by 22nd Armoured Brigade's 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards and then 5th RTR during the summer of 1945. The 6 prototypes where then shipped back to the UK for further trials.

[BillB]

Hi Bill! I'm curious, but has he or anyone else you have run across mentioned when the Centurion actually first went into regular squadron service and with which regiment? I know the first six - and only - Mark I A. 41 Centurions were on the way to Germany for service test at the end of the war, but I've always been curious what happened to them after that? But when were the first Mark II A. 41A completed (I've seen reference to January 1946 but haven't been able to pin that down) and issued?

 

Rich

Hi Rich,

 

a bit sparse but according to Dunstan as cited, the Cent entered regular service in December 1946, and one of the first units so equipped was 1st RTR at Detmold which had them by 1947. The photo/colour plate for the latter refers to a Cent Mk.1 and a maintenance stencil dated to 1 August 1946.

 

Hope this helps,

BillB

[Rich]

Hi Rich,

 

a bit sparse but according to Dunstan as cited, the Cent entered regular service in December 1946, and one of the first units so equipped was 1st RTR at Detmold which had them by 1947. The photo/colour plate for the latter refers to a Cent Mk.1 and a maintenance stencil dated to 1 August 1946.

 

Hope this helps,

BillB

 

Thanks Bill and Retac, quick answers! Interesting, I always assumed that the Mark I was just used for tests, I suppose I thought so because there were so few of them.

[DKTanker]

Im not aware they saw combat anywhere else. Unless you count the time they blew up the German pub with a blank Hesh round of course....

I'll bite. WTF is a blank Hesh round? A blank connotates no projectile, hence no HESH. If by blank inert is meant, then the HESH has no HE filler therefore no explosion.

[Briganza]

I'll bite. WTF is a blank Hesh round? A blank connotates no projectile, hence no HESH. If by blank inert is meant, then the HESH has no HE filler therefore no explosion.

Inert would be training or drill. He probably means what he said a blank rd as in the same as your rifle. A weapon fire simulation, I know the wombat had them. It was not to be fired from the wombat but put to one side to simulate the blast and smk.

[DB]

I know that the 105 had single piece ammunition, but what would happen if you did such with just a HESH bag charge from a Chieftain?

 

I would imagine it would be quite loud, and quite bright.

[BillB]

Gee you lot are good; and fast.

 

BillB, do tell more.

 

Doug. Fair point.

 

At the risk of going off topic early. I see plenty of parallels between the way Australia used their tanks in New Guinea/Bougainville/Borneo and twenty years later in Vietnam. That is, in the SW Pacific and Vietnam, Australians only ever used their Armour to head off into the scrub to bust bunkers. Is that unique?

 

Thanks so much.

 

regards

 

Mick

Right, Cents and the Hook. First off, what I said above is not correct, I misunderstood a picture caption. Lt M Anstice comanding 4 Troop, B Squadron, 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards was attached to the 1st Bn The Black Watch on the Hook. On the night of 18/19 November 1952 the Chinese attacked the Hook and overran the defences. The Cents were instrumental in a counter-attack by 1 BW that retook the feature. Anstice went in with one attack on his own, his Cent was hit on the glacis by a 3.5 bazooka rocket that penetrated, injured the driver (Trooper Lewis) and set the vehicle on fire. The loader (L/Cpl Williamson) climbed out under fire and extinguished the flames on the mantlet and stowage bins, then took over as driver and took the vehicle back down the hill for Lewis to be casevaced and then returned to the line. 4 Troop then supported a dawn attack by 1st Bn Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry before finally being relieved. Lt Anstice was awarded the MC for his part in the action.

 

BillB

[DKTanker]

To be honest I cant recall if it was a blank, or a HESH training round (memory leans towards the latter) However as the gun barrel was pushed in through a window and the round fired point blank, it didnt seem to matter to the contents of the bar either way.

I was pretty sure that's what you meant...sorry for yanking your chain without an emoticon.

[nitflegal]

Don't know if it counts (and heck, don't know if it was even true) but somewhere in my library is a reference to a werewolf unit attack on one of the A41 Centurions in Operation Sentry sometime in the summer of 1945. I've never found any other reference and have never read through the Operation Sentry report, so no clue if it actually happened.

 

Matt

[Guest chippymick]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Out of idle curiosity. Has anyone any idea on whether or how a Matilda might of fared in comparison to a Centurion in Vietnam?

 

Regards

 

 

Mick

[Bearded-Dragon]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Out of idle curiosity. Has anyone any idea on whether or how a Matilda might of fared in comparison to a Centurion in Vietnam?

 

Regards

Mick

 

No where near as well. Its 2 pdr was barely adequate in WWII, in Vietnam it lacked a canister round one of the two main types used. Its HE round was tiny compared to the 20 pdr which was 10 times the weight. The Centurion was quite often able to bash its way through thick bush and jungle, which the Mathilda wasn't well known for doing. The protection levels would have been roughly comparable, I believe but I'm willing to be corrected on that.

[DougRichards]

No where near as well. Its 2 pdr was barely adequate in WWII, in Vietnam it lacked a canister round one of the two main types used. Its HE round was tiny compared to the 20 pdr which was 10 times the weight. The Centurion was quite often able to bash its way through thick bush and jungle, which the Mathilda wasn't well known for doing. The protection levels would have been roughly comparable, I believe but I'm willing to be corrected on that.

Centurion had a twice the power to weight ratio, leading to not only higher speed but greater mobility overall. The Centurion's armour was not only thicker overall, but was also able to accept an extra slab of armour on the glacis.

 

The Centurion could cross a 11 foot trench, in comparison with Matilda's 7 foot and the Centurion could tackle a 3 foot vertical obstacle in comparison with Matilda's 2 ft.

 

There are also more subtle advantages to the Centurion. In VN the RAAC removed the bazooka plates over the suspension because they got clogged with mud and bush, relying on the large wheels for protection against RPGs from the flank. The dust shields on the Matilda would have become more easily clogged.

 

This discussion has so far ignored the third contender.

 

Australia, at the end of WW2, had conducted comparative tests between the Sherman and the Churchill, and in infantry support operations in jungle the Churchill was considered to be the superior performer.

 

Australia also purchased 51 Churchills, that were used only for training, but lasted in that role until 1956, Centurions beginning to arrive in 1952. Britain kept some Churchill AVRE in service until the 1960s.

 

The Churchill, with the 75mm gun would have had a moderately effective HE round, and had a better obstacle crossing ability than the Matilda.

[John_Ford]

No where near as well. Its 2 pdr was barely adequate in WWII, in Vietnam it lacked a canister round one of the two main types used. Its HE round was tiny compared to the 20 pdr which was 10 times the weight. The Centurion was quite often able to bash its way through thick bush and jungle, which the Mathilda wasn't well known for doing. The protection levels would have been roughly comparable, I believe but I'm willing to be corrected on that.

 

 

 

I think the Churchill would have done fine in the jungle. The 75MM HE was considered the standard for infantry support guns up to the 20 PDR/90 MM and had a canister round as well. Also a Smoke/WP round. Would have done well bustin brush. The 20 PDR had a better rep as a hole puncher with the 90 considered better all around with regards to ammo.

[BillB]

Hi all,

 

Thought the following link from ARRSE might be of interest, it has an extract from a letter with some stuff about Centurions fighting on the Hook. Some interesting pics of Brit infantry too.

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?nam...t=88778#1783234